"Respect for the game"...?? To respect the game is to follow the rules of the room: don't bet out of turn, one player to a hand, money on table must stay, etc. THAT'S respecting the game. Everyone is entitled to play their money how they choose. That's not disrespecting the game. It's might be poor play, but it certainly isn't disrespectful.
Ha, whenever someone at a table talks about respect, I KNOW they're a fish at heart. Watched this "serious no limit player" type sit down at a 3/6 game the other day. He doubled his $100 in several hands, having some actual good hands. He talked about "having no respect" from other players as they mercilessly called down his top pair or overpair. He then proceed to start playing and raising with 8-3 off, K-5 off, etc. Needless to say he was broke in that game and relegated to waiting elsewhere for his "serious 1-2 NL game seat".
I also am kind of disgusted with the players in these sorts of games, because they have no discipline, no self control, and no respect for the game. Their dim mental processes don't comprehend that when the pot is raised, their Q4o is in even worse shape than usual; they just say to themselves, "Ooo, more money in the pot! I call." and then when they come home, broke, they tell their wives they were "unlucky" (for the eleventh time in a row).
This part of your post is quite arrogant. First, if you are so disgusted, why are you playing with them? If you choose to play in that game, then shouldn't you, as a "great" poker player, be able to adjust your game to still beat them? If not, then maybe you aren't as good as you think? Just a thought.
"Respect for the game"...?? To respect the game is to follow the rules of the room: don't bet out of turn, one player to a hand, money on table must stay, etc. THAT'S respecting the game. Everyone is entitled to play their money how they choose. That's not disrespecting the game. It's might be poor play, but it certainly isn't disrespectful.
Obviously, I don't play in such games. I used to HAVE to if I wanted to play at all, until NLHE came along. However, had you actually read my post, I did say that donkfest limit games can be profitable. You put words in my mouth: I never said I couldn't beat those games, only that I didn't care to play in them. The high rake and the extreme variance makes these games unpleasant experiences, at least for me.
And my term "respect for the game" is deliberately chosen, as well as quite appropriate. Poker is a game where you look at the cards you are dealt AND THEN decide whether to put money in the pot. This is where judgment and strategy come into play. But a 2/4 LHE donkfest is nothing more than "let's everybody throw money into the pot (regardless of what they have), and then we'll turn the cards over and see who wins". That isn't poker; it's bingo. Respect for the game includes discretion in one's choice of which hands are playable, consideration of context of actions, and some modicum of strategy. Of course I realize that people who don't employ any of those tools are, in many ways, ideal opponents. But in a larger sense, people who don't think ahead, are often too lazy to think at all, form shallow observations (if they form them at all), and use faulty, unsupported logic (if they use any logic at all) are not the sort of people I want to spend any time with, even if it IS profitable to do so. Such people have elected a socialist government that is destroying our economy and our society, and I can't do anything about that, but I don't have to spend any time with such fools if I can at all avoid it.
Ha, whenever someone at a table talks about respect, I KNOW they're a fish at heart. Watched this "serious no limit player" type sit down at a 3/6 game the other day. He doubled his $100 in several hands, having some actual good hands. He talked about "having no respect" from other players as they mercilessly called down his top pair or overpair. He then proceed to start playing and raising with 8-3 off, K-5 off, etc. Needless to say he was broke in that game and relegated to waiting elsewhere for his "serious 1-2 NL game seat".[/quote]
But your narrative proves the point. He won as long as he was NOT playing like the other idiots at the table, and started losing once he started to emulate them. He lost because he abandoned his respect for the game. And he was correct in saying that he was "getting no respect", although it may have been strategically unwise for him to say so. The low-limit donks SHOULD have realized that he was playing sound cards and NOT "mercilessly" called him down. The good player was annoyed by the fact that the fish didn't realize this. Perhaps he was tilted by some donkey calling him to the river with third pair-eighth kicker and making two pair to beat his KK. What he failed to do was realize that the moronic donkeys will win occasionally when they play their 93o and K4o hands for six or seven bets to the river, and that it actually helps him in the long run when that happens, as once a given moron makes a gutshot straight with his J5 and drags a big pot, said moron will never, never fold any other hand--even if he is dealt two BLANK cards--ever again.
I win consistently whenever I lower myself to play with these mentally challenged and undisciplined fools, but the experience isn't pleasant (whether I win or lose). And the win rate isn't that great, not with the high rakes these days, not to mention the jackpot drop which will ultimately be awarded to some fish who plays 33 for three preflop raises.
A player who doesn't like low stakes Limit because they can't beat the rake. If you are playing against a bunch of even half-decent players, this is going to be true. Luckily there are plenty of fish at 2-4 limit in Vegas, though. Some of those fish might be NL players who don't know how to play a limit game.
A player who doesn't like low stakes Limit because too many people show no respect to their hands and thus they can't win. Someone who can't adapt is, I believe, one of these fish.
A player who doesn't like low stakes Limit because too many people show no respect to their hands and they don't like the variance. Fine, each to their own. Personally I quite like the waiting game, I fill in time chatting to the fun people at the table and drinking beer. Anyone would think I was on vacation.
I also am kind of disgusted with the players in these sorts of games, because they have no discipline, no self control, and no respect for the game. Their dim mental processes don't comprehend that when the pot is raised, their Q4o is in even worse shape than usual; they just say to themselves, "Ooo, more money in the pot! I call." and then when they come home, broke, they tell their wives they were "unlucky" (for the eleventh time in a row).
This part of your post is quite arrogant. First, if you are so disgusted, why are you playing with them? If you choose to play in that game, then shouldn't you, as a "great" poker player, be able to adjust your game to still beat them? If not, then maybe you aren't as good as you think? Just a thought.
"Respect for the game"...?? To respect the game is to follow the rules of the room: don't bet out of turn, one player to a hand, money on table must stay, etc. THAT'S respecting the game. Everyone is entitled to play their money how they choose. That's not disrespecting the game. It's might be poor play, but it certainly isn't disrespectful.
Obviously, I don't play in such games. I used to HAVE to if I wanted to play at all, until NLHE came along. However, had you actually read my post, I did say that donkfest limit games can be profitable. You put words in my mouth: I never said I couldn't beat those games, only that I didn't care to play in them. The high rake and the extreme variance makes these games unpleasant experiences, at least for me.
And my term "respect for the game" is deliberately chosen, as well as quite appropriate. Poker is a game where you look at the cards you are dealt AND THEN decide whether to put money in the pot. This is where judgment and strategy come into play. But a 2/4 LHE donkfest is nothing more than "let's everybody throw money into the pot (regardless of what they have), and then we'll turn the cards over and see who wins". That isn't poker; it's bingo. Respect for the game includes discretion in one's choice of which hands are playable, consideration of context of actions, and some modicum of strategy. Of course I realize that people who don't employ any of those tools are, in many ways, ideal opponents. But in a larger sense, people who don't think ahead, are often too lazy to think at all, form shallow observations (if they form them at all), and use faulty, unsupported logic (if they use any logic at all) are not the sort of people I want to spend any time with, even if it IS profitable to do so. Such people have elected a socialist government that is destroying our economy and our society, and I can't do anything about that, but I don't have to spend any time with such fools if I can at all avoid it.
But For as long as I have been playing or dealing I have never seen a limit game where all the players just put their money and then flip up the cards to see who won (except 1 private game I dealt in which the guys were just having a good time, they asked me to deal the board out first with them betting and then I dealt them their cards.) It simply doesn't happen that way. Yes the guy who gets his pocket Aces cracked by Q4s claims that is what is happening but if he followed the game he would have noticed that players folded at each street.
As for bad play I see bad play at every level limit and No Limit. I see players that will call almost any two cards at both limit and no limit. I see mor eplayers making actual blind bets (you klnow the very thing you call lack of respect for the game) at No limit than I do at limit.
I also am kind of disgusted with the players in these sorts of games, because they have no discipline, no self control, and no respect for the game. Their dim mental processes don't comprehend that when the pot is raised, their Q4o is in even worse shape than usual; they just say to themselves, "Ooo, more money in the pot! I call." and then when they come home, broke, they tell their wives they were "unlucky" (for the eleventh time in a row).
Isn't that the truth.
Most people I see at 2/4 still try to bet $20 when they have a big hand on the turn or river, lol!
actually is is only common in ttourist rooms where the players are new to the game. While regulars sometimes get confused as to whether they can raise to $4 or $6 they nvere try to bet $20 in a $2-$4 game.
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I think overall at low limits, you lose any element of semi-bluffing (or bluffing someone when you have a read).
Limit is primarily a game of value betting. However their are opportunities to bluff you just have to learn to recognize them.
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You lose a lot of ability to read, period.
I think its a lot easier to read low limit poker players than No Limit poker players.
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So I don't like it when people tell someone who plays mid-stakes "you don't know what poker is about". They DO know, but it's actually difficult to adapt to the confines of a low-limit game, and to be comfortable with the extreme variance.
if you say "when you have 9 loose cannons at the table chasing everything, you are not going to win. If you have pocket aces with 6 callers and no one is folding chances are you are behind by the time you get to the river. If you are playing in a higher stake game chances are you will be heads up" then you don't understand poker. The simple fact of the matter is that in poker you measure success by how many chips you win -- not how many pots. So let me have 9 loose canons chasing me down every time. I am happy to win less pots as long as the pots I win are big pots because of all these chasers. And sure in a higher limit game your aces are heads up at the river with the one guy who beat you. The guys just stopped putting their money in earlier so what. comming second pays the same as comning in 5th.
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And yes, it is tempting to play more hands (but mathematically, one CAN play a lot more hands if everyone's limping preflop almost every hand - just not every hand you get dealt).
the thing is that its No limit that actually lets you play more hands because of the implied odds. I can justify limping in to a pot with a lot of callers with a 2 5 offsuit more easily when I know that if I get the right flop I might get to stack somebody.
Completely agree with you man (not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me actually).
The "serious NL type" though was going on and on about how "I can't bet big to protect my hand" (umm, the point of made hands in poker is NOT to protect your hand, it's to charge a bad price to draw), and ultimately about how "I'd rather get respect than win more money". I've seen others too who really care about the feelings of confidence they get when winning a hand - it's all about that for them, not about their odds of winning the hand, the cost to play the hand out, etc. Anyway it was funny stuff.
I think its a lot easier to read low limit poker players than No Limit poker players.
I do disagree with this one - when someone check-calls regardless of how strong their hand is, how do you read that? (And yes, I've seen people check-call flopped trips or other big hands to the river, as I am sure we all have.) I do agree though in the sense that some low limit players only bet when they have a hand (or call), that's an easy read, but it's not that common in my opinion to come across someone who isn't at least slightly tricky (even if being "tricky" only means limping with a bigger hand preflop or check-calling two pair or better to showdown).
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Watched this "serious no limit player" type sit down at a 3/6 game the other day. He doubled his $100 in several hands, having some actual good hands. He talked about "having no respect" from other players as they mercilessly called down his top pair or overpair. He then proceed to start playing and raising with 8-3 off, K-5 off, etc. Needless to say he was broke in that game and relegated to waiting elsewhere for his "serious 1-2 NL game seat".
