Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:33 pm Posts: 557 Location: Wherever the bed bugs call home
300 bb deep utg you raise to $12 and you've been pretty active. One caller. CO raises to 24. He has $600 and he is obviously a new player. Caller in between has $180. I'm not folding here but thoughts? Do we just let him own himself with smaller pairs? Do we try to get it in even though he's a new, timid player who min raised? In higher limits I 3bet without a second thought but here... Thoughts?
*4-bet*
_________________ "I would rather make the gravest of mistakes than surrender my own judgment. "
Last edited by NegligencePerSe on Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:52 am Posts: 1184 Location: Cleveland, Ohio
I think I 3 bet here, probably to about $70. I do this mainly to get the limper out of the pot. I'm assuming the limper is playing something like a mid-pair, a medium ace or some sort of suited connector and that the new player is playing a premium hand (J-J, Q-Q, K-K, A-A, A-K suited). You are way ahead of a lot of the limpers' range and I don't want to price him into the pot. Also, if the newbie 4 bets, I could consider a preflop fold -- probably still don't do it, but I'd at least consider it.
Dave
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Pretty much second what Dap said, although against savvy players I'd often flat and take a three way flop. The reason is a very good player (the villain) won't Five bet any hands here including AA because he can't balance his five bet and it leaves his range wide, so if we four bet KK we're only bloating the pot OOP when really deep which is a losing proposition against really good players. But I digress. Against an average tight player I'd likely four bet to get heads up and if he five bets I'd puke in the nearest garbage can and likely find a fold preflop. If he flats I'd all but rule AA out of his range and assume I have the best hand and put villains range on JJ-KK, AKo, AKs, and maybe AQs.
I would call in most live games with kk here, but I would probably 4-bet in most online games. Besides being OOP and blowing the pot up, you have I great spot for your caller to push with a huge range of semi good hands. As you said, you've been playing a lot of hands, so he wouldn't expect you to have kk. To his left, his is looking at the new guy, probably picking up the same thing as you. Now his looking down at 99, thinking he can pick up the pot right there with a shove for his 180$.
If he just calls, I would put a 45$ bet on any flop without an A
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:51 pm Posts: 203 Location: East Bay, CA
PeteLovesVEgas wrote:
you have I great spot for your caller to push with a huge range of semi good hands. As you said, you've been playing a lot of hands, so he wouldn't expect you to have kk. To his left, his is looking at the new guy, probably picking up the same thing as you. Now his looking down at 99, thinking he can pick up the pot right there with a shove for his 180$.
Umm really? Caller called a raise by a good player, got reraised behind, you think he'll shove into two players showing aggression with marginal hand?
Put in a really large 4 bet here one that looks like it is targeting the middle players relatively gimped stack. You either take a decent pot withou the risk of seeing a bloated pot after the flop and secondly given the short stack some incentive to gamble his AK/AQ QQ-1010 maybe? And certainly the new player cannot flat behind with any hand and really only 5 bet shove with KK/AA. I think you rarel lose the 200 raise here if he does have AA but you may be able to find I in yourself to lay down now with this information. If we make it 70 and get heads up with this villain (bc he is almost certainly flattin everything. I can't imagine any hand he shoves that is t a bluff) and we play for stacks on a jack high flop. Just how I would play it and this is strongly bc of the third player. HU flat and pray for a dry board. And lastly I'm not folding KK if he five bet shoves me. We will play a 1400 dollar pot and if he has aces I'm winning 1/4. so be it.
Pretty much second what Dap said, although against savvy players I'd often flat and take a three way flop. The reason is a very good player (the villain) won't Five bet any hands here including AA because he can't balance his five bet and it leaves his range wide, so if we four bet KK we're only bloating the pot OOP when really deep which is a losing proposition against really good players. But I digress. Against an average tight player I'd likely four bet to get heads up and if he five bets I'd puke in the nearest garbage can and likely find a fold preflop. If he flats I'd all but rule AA out of his range and assume I have the best hand and put villains range on JJ-KK, AKo, AKs, and maybe AQs.
Can you please explain what you mean with the following:
"The reason is a very good player (the villain) won't Five bet any hands here including AA because he can't balance his five bet and it leaves his range wide"
I don't quite understand why someholding AA won't 5 bet here.
Pretty much second what Dap said, although against savvy players I'd often flat and take a three way flop. The reason is a very good player (the villain) won't Five bet any hands here including AA because he can't balance his five bet and it leaves his range wide, so if we four bet KK we're only bloating the pot OOP when really deep which is a losing proposition against really good players. But I digress. Against an average tight player I'd likely four bet to get heads up and if he five bets I'd puke in the nearest garbage can and likely find a fold preflop. If he flats I'd all but rule AA out of his range and assume I have the best hand and put villains range on JJ-KK, AKo, AKs, and maybe AQs.
Can you please explain what you mean with the following:
"The reason is a very good player (the villain) won't Five bet any hands here including AA because he can't balance his five bet and it leaves his range wide"
I don't quite understand why someholding AA won't 5 bet here.
@kevinh What I mean is that that most good thinking players who try to balance their range (balancing is just meaning they both bluff and bet for value an even amount) won't five bet because they rarely if ever five bet as a bluff, so five betting here screams AA. In order to keep their range balanced and not give away their hand a good player will just flat here which leaves their perceived range a lot wider than just AA, something like TT+, AKs, AKo, AQs, and maybe AJs along with some other hands which they feel they'd have equity post flop with against the four bet. It's an advanced concept but i thought it was worth mentioning. The bottom line is a good player against another good player likely won't five bet AA as he feels that it gives away too much info and allows his opponent to correctly fold a hand like QQ or KK, and we never want to give away so much info that are opponents can play perfectly against our hand.
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:50 pm Posts: 1989 Location: Chicago
BentonBlakeman wrote:
@kevinh What I mean is that that most good thinking players who try to balance their range (balancing is just meaning they both bluff and bet for value an even amount) won't five bet because they rarely if ever five bet as a bluff, so five betting here screams AA. In order to keep their range balanced and not give away their hand a good player will just flat here which leaves their perceived range a lot wider than just AA, something like TT+, AKs, AKo, AQs, and maybe AJs along with some other hands which they feel they'd have equity post flop with against the four bet. It's an advanced concept but i thought it was worth mentioning. The bottom line is a good player against another good player likely won't five bet AA as he feels that it gives away too much info and allows his opponent to correctly fold a hand like QQ or KK, and we never want to give away so much info that are opponents can play perfectly against our hand.
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