Let me start off by saying that I am not proud of this hand. Anytime your KQ beats KK you have to hang your head a bit. But I want to get some of your opinions about how both I and my opponent played this hand. I don’t think I could have played this much differently, and looking back on it, I don’t think my opponent played it all that poorly either. I think this was just simply a hand that screwed his KK in a way that made it almost impossible for him (or I) to escape from the way it played out. If he had played uber -aggressive pre-flop then I could have laid down, otherwise I can’t see much else changing. Agree? Disagree? Insights?
I was playing 2-5 NL Hold’em at a local casino in Detroit. I was in the cutoff and it folded around to me. I had KQ suited in spades. I decided I wanted to take down the blinds without a challenge (and narrow hand ranges if called) so I raised to $35 (typical raise in this game was $25 so I went a little higher). The button on my left called me without hesitation and the blinds folded. I put him on a hand like AK because he didn’t reraise, or maybe a pair like 10-10. Flop came As-Kx-5s. I obviously liked this board although I suspected I was behind with the ace out there (at this point I felt that AK was still his most likely holding). I c-bet $75 (pot size - too much maybe) and again he just called which cemented the AK theory in my mind. I really wasn’t considering a big set, not with a king on the board and one in my hand. The 8s landed on the turn giving me the nut flush. I bet $50 trying to appear cautious of the flush and hoping for a raise (should have just bet $125 but was worried about not getting the raise). He raised it to $150 total which was less than I expected, but he looked confident ( I was still oblivious as to why) so I min-raised him back to $250 hoping to incite a bigger move. It worked and he shoved for a total of $1860 which had my $1530 covered. I wasn’t happy to see that he had more outs than expected, but my hand held and I picked up a nice pot.
After smooth calling pre-flop he could have hammered my flop bet, but I’m not sure how much it would have taken to get me out. I over bet the flop so he had the opportunity to jack it up pretty good there, but I suppose he put me on a hand like AQ and wanted me to keep betting into him on the turn. It would be hard for him to assume the only guy in against him had flopped the flush draw and so he probably didn’t want to scare me off. We all occasionally slow play our big hands, he just had horrible timing. Thoughts?

I think your opponent played it less than well. The smooth call preflop is ok for deception, but if I were him I'd definitely be raising the flop with 2 very apparent draws out there. You could have easily been raising with QJ or QT from the cutoff, thus giving you a straight draw. Though unlikely, your opponent cant completely discount the flush draw. In this case the unlikely was actually what you held, and it beat him. If he really did put you on a big ace, a flop raise would likely just get more money in the pot, not scare you away. Even if you didnt have any draws, a spade or straight card on the turn might freeze the action, all the more reason he should raise on the flop. So yeah, even though you were prob gonna stick around anyway, he needed to raise the flop.

Some comments..

- it's dangerous to slowplay KKs with stacks this deep. looks like 400BBs or so. I'd just 3bet preflop. it's ok to trap sometimes but I'd prefer trapping with smaller stacks as KKs are a hand that is not likely to improve post flop. You really don't want to play a 400BB pot with KK.

- i don't see how you can put him on AK when he smooth calls preflop and flop. There are a ton of hands he could have.

- this flop is still kinda dangerous and stacks are deep. If i was villain I would raise the flop due to the draws because you will prob shutdown anyways unless your hand is strong (and if your hand is strong you might call a raise anyways)

- there's no reason for you to feel bad. You didn't suck out. You got the majority of the money in on the hand AFTER you made your flush.

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Because of the deep stacks (unlimited buy-in) people don't get too crazy with AK. Calling a raise of 7 times the BB doesn't generally happen by hands that are likely dominated -AJ, KJ, QJ etc... so I felt AK or a mid range pair were most likely as AA KK & QQ would have come over the top of me. He wasn't getting odds to come after me with tricky hands like suited connectors.
I like your thinking about the size of the starting stacks and how they relate to playing a hand like KK. Trapping with smaller starting stacks reduces your variance greatly. Good angle there.

Thanks for the post.
Congrats on winning this big pot, but there are quite a few things I don't like about this hand, both in the way you and V played it.
Maybe there are some relevant reads/history between the two of you that you haven't mentioned, but barring that, here are the problems I see with this hand.

Pre-flop:
Hero:
1)Betting KQs from the CO in an unopened pot should not be to "take down the blinds". This is a strong hand from late position and is likely well ahead. At this point you're raising for value, not to win $7 in blinds.
Why do you "put him on a hand like AK because he didn't reraise". I am reraising AK on the BTN very often here. My hand range would be pretty wide for a button caller to a late position open at a standard $2/5 game. AK is actually a very narrow part of his range, considering you have one of the other Kings.

V:
2)Flatting KK is pretty terribad, esp. considering your stack sizes. V should be raising nearly 100% of the time here to get more money in PF and decrease the huge SPRs you will have considering you are both almost 400 BB deep.

Flop:
Hero:
I probably bet $50 here (2/3 pot) as we're on the drawing hand if we think he has an ace, and thus it is less likely he is drawing. What is a pot size bet accomplishing that 2/3 pot is not. We are not pricing him off his draws, but are getting made hands to call us when we bet the pot here.
Again, I don't see how this "cemented the AK theory" though, as AK should be raising here a large portion of the time, not flatting.

V:
Again, not raising here is bad, as he is not getting money in with a value hand. Def should be raising this flop with middle set, as if you have opened with a decent ace (a good part of your range, though you are probably c-betting here 80%+), you may call flop and re-evaluate the turn.

Turn:
Why bet so little. Pot is like $225 and you bet $50 with the nuts. I guess it's okay to try and induce, but again, you need to be getting more in. If you bet 1/2-2/3 pot on the turn, V still has a good chance of raising because he can rep the flush card. You have bet PF, on the flop and spiked the nuts on the turn. I would say your nut hand is fairly disguised here, and a bet of $150 is much better. If he wants to raise at that point it is fine and you can get it in. The small raise by him, followed by your min raise are gross. Why all these tiny bets by both of you?

To be honest, I don't like the bet sizing or how this hand was played by either player.

I'm really happy you won, but I think there is a lot to learn from this hand.

TF

I don't follow your logic here, nor your comment about the odds he was getting. If he flats pre he produces an SPR approaching 30. His implied odds are huge. He can go after you with just about anything. If he 3-bets you and you call he actually drives the SPR into a range in which KK is a lot tougher to play, although HUIP it may still be reasonable to do so.

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At 400 BB deep, suited connectors are very playable. He can pay 7x BB for a chance to hit something crazy and stack up 400BB. With deeper stack, PF calling range further widens.

By the title, I guess you had KK?

I really don't have an issue with how things were played until this point. Because KK played the hand very passively, he had to open his range for you.
Based on how the hand was played to this point and the action on this street, stacking off $15 bills is VERY poor!

All else being equal, you won't see a quality player stacking off or even re-raising a three bet on any street without the Nuts......unless he thinks you're a maniac or complete idiot. Therefore, this "min-raise" approach won't be sucessful against a quality opponent. He should have flatted the $100 and seen the River. I think that's what most quality players would do.

Congratulations on knowing your opponent and getting to most out of your hand!

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Inc. derailment: was this greektown?

The good thing about playing in Detroit: every hand is a [CENSORED] measuring contest with both players attempting the make the most terrible plays.

The bad thing about playing in Detroit: having to hear two jackassholes argue about who's got bigger balls every hand on every table.

Good times. Nice pot. I wish more people would overbet jam into me when I have the nuts

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"I would rather make the gravest of mistakes than surrender my own judgment. "

It was at the Motor City. And you're right about the players - there are a lot of guys with deep pockets who are a lot more concerned with massaging their egos than what happens to their stack. Nice when you're catching some cards, difficult when you are not. I think that's why I over-thought my turn betting. Once I had the nuts I got caught up in worrying about getting paid rather than realizing that he would still come after me if I bet $125-$175 if he had any kind of strong hand. I was in fact counting on that aggression you mentioned. As Wynngolfhatguy said, my min-raise 3-bet should have been a warning to any competent player but he crashed over the top anyway.
So I made a bad play counting on bad play in return to reward it. That is messed up. Now my head hurts.