Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am Posts: 3909 Location: Manassas, VA
BentonBlakeman wrote:
Yeah, FYI, I'm not folding KK pre even in a million dollar tourney, but I'm playing it much slower by possibly not three betting it early or by just calling if I get three bet and then proceeding with caution by check calling down smaller bets, essentially turning it into a bluff catcher.
by the way, I think this is the best way to play KK in a $1/$2 live game when you are 3bet and stacks are deep. If you 4bet, you are almost always turning your KK into a bluff... Yes, a bluff. I'd call the 3bet then check/call down any non-Ace flop. Now I might vary that, but it's a good thought in general.
By the way, I stacked off 150 effective BBs with KK vs AA preflop exactly 7 days ago... though there was a short stack in between who caused the whole mess... at least that's my story.
_________________ - pls excuse my typos... I'm prob on my iPhone
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:25 am Posts: 477 Location: Southern California
Oh wow, I thought the problem with the email notifications had been fixed, at least for me, but I'm pretty sure I didn't get notifications of these last few posts. Glad I double checked.
AdRock wrote:
I disagree. For sure, I'd get in with AA here. If the other guy sucks out, oh well.
With KK facing a three-bet I'm not really concerned (only one hand beats me) and I'm pretty excited. When I 4-bet and the other guy commits his stack, I don't like it at all. We can come up with a lot of personalities and reasons and hands he might play that way, but I think it's Occam's razor. He most likely has AA.
You're getting about 1.2:1 on your call. You have to see QQ and AK a lot for that to be +EV.
Interesting take. Glad to find some justification for playing it slower. In the case I witnessed, neither player had a read on the other--third hand of the tourn, never played with each other before--so that's another reason for the KK guy to proceed more cautiously. That said, someone at the table noted that even if he played it slower preflop and just called AA's 3 bet, he would have lost his stack anyway since there was no Ace on the board. But I see others pointing out the wisdom of just check/calling down rather than being aggressive.
vookenmeister wrote:
BentonBlakeman wrote:
Yeah, FYI, I'm not folding KK pre even in a million dollar tourney, but I'm playing it much slower by possibly not three betting it early or by just calling if I get three bet and then proceeding with caution by check calling down smaller bets, essentially turning it into a bluff catcher.
by the way, I think this is the best way to play KK in a $1/$2 live game when you are 3bet and stacks are deep. If you 4bet, you are almost always turning your KK into a bluff... Yes, a bluff. I'd call the 3bet then check/call down any non-Ace flop. Now I might vary that, but it's a good thought in general.
By the way, I stacked off 150 effective BBs with KK vs AA preflop exactly 7 days ago... though there was a short stack in between who caused the whole mess... at least that's my story.
Vook, I guess it might depend on your read on the player, right? But you're basically saying you never 4 bet KK in a 1/2 cash game? OK, so with my history with KK, why am I even questioning that!
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am Posts: 3909 Location: Manassas, VA
After my last trip to Vegas where I only played 1/2 i am thinking its better to smooth call a 3 bet with KKs. Vegas 1/2 it seems players rarely 3bet and if you 4 bet u pretty much are turning your KK into a bluff. Obv it depends. For instance I 3 bet bluff on occasion but when I do an show the whole table gasps. So by calling the 3 bet u keep the hands u beat in (and make your hand look like weaker). I'd then proceed by check calling or betting if checked to. I'd fold to an Ace and move on. After I stacked off my KK vs AA for 150BBs the 2nd night I decided to play them slower Tia 3bet
_________________ - pls excuse my typos... I'm prob on my iPhone
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:25 am Posts: 477 Location: Southern California
Interesting, Vook. I don't think 3 betting at a 1/2 game in Vegas all that rare. But if I understand you, you're essentially putting anyone who 3 bets on AA?
So far I personally haven't been 3-betting much other than AA or KK but I think I'm too tight. I see lots of 3-bets with much lesser hands.
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am Posts: 3909 Location: Manassas, VA
No I'm saying that 3betting is so rare that if you 4 bet you are only getting called by AA. So if stacks are deep it's better to disguise your hand and just call the 3bet then play post flop accordingly
I would say that most players only 3 bet with JJ+ and AK and will only call a 4bet with KK or AA if really deep. It really depends on how deep you are
I ask this how often do you see people 3bet with AQ or 1010s? Not often really.
Again it depends on the player but it's my theory in general. 1/2 Vegas seems so different to me than online or 2/5. I'm trying to tell myself to bloat the pot AFTER the flop
_________________ - pls excuse my typos... I'm prob on my iPhone
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am Posts: 3909 Location: Manassas, VA
Sorry. Was holding a baby and had to stop typing.
It also depends on position and dynamics. I def lean towards calling a 3bet in position against a bully. Why let him off the hook with a 4 bet?
I'd do the same out of position though I'm a little less comfy. If he is the kind of bully who continue to bet at weakness in capable of check/calling down
You make your money post flop at 1/2 and in most cases you are going to face players who overvalue their hand post flop. Of course some of this is confidence in my post flop play. Maybe a little bit could be greed or foolishness but I'm always trying to think of different angles to match the game as it evolves. So what I'm writing here isn't gospel. It's just me thinking out loud
_________________ - pls excuse my typos... I'm prob on my iPhone
depends so much on table dynamics and stack sizes, but yeah generally the AA and KK are easy enough to spot in the hands of the typical player in the typical vegas 1-2nl game. as far as tournaments go, if your playing well/correct, having KK vs AA will be a common cause for bustouts, as will set under set post flop, i find the two while rare enough occurrences should frequently result in hitting the rail if played correctly...just one of those unfortunate dynamics if your on the wrong side of it...playing deep its possible to get off KK preflop in the right circumstances, however in tournaments its rarely correct...i would say of the very few KK folds ive made in tournaments and seen the results of, only about half did they have the AA i was so sure they had to have, other half was usually QQ, AK, and rarely the other king...so hypothetically my results would have been about the same had i called plus two additional benefits 1. in the hands i was wrong about them having AA it would have likely resulted in a significant chip increase valuable in a tournament and 2. this hasnt taken into account that i should win or tie nearly one in 5 times or so...
in this particular example, at this particular tournament, i think folding the KK could be viable if the player weighs his read into the probability of his V having aces and juxtaposes that with his perceived skill advantage % in the tournament
...That said, someone at the table noted that even if he played it slower preflop and just called AA's 3 bet, he would have lost his stack anyway since there was no Ace on the board. But I see others pointing out the wisdom of just check/calling down rather than being aggressive.
In the first few levels of a deepstack, I don't think you automatically have to get stacked with KK just because you have an overpair when no A comes on the board. If it's been 3-bet or 4-bet, I'd likely go to flop and try see all streets and a showdown as cheaply as possible if V continued to show strength / dependent on board texture. Just like there's no need to get stacked with AA which is essentially just an overpair in certain multi-way flop situations. Like my MTT flop a few weeks back of , glumly eying down a big check-raise followed by a "check-raise 3-bet" from the two players in front, while I'm holding
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![[Ks]](./images/smilies/ks.gif "K Spades")
![[Kc]](./images/smilies/kc.gif "K Clubs")
![[Qs]](./images/smilies/qs.gif "Q Spades")
, glumly eying down a big check-raise followed by a "check-raise 3-bet" from the two players in front, while I'm holding ![[Ad]](./images/smilies/ad.gif "A Diamonds")
![[Ah]](./images/smilies/ah.gif "A Hearts")
