Thought this one was interesting

GoPackGo · **Joined:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:40 pm **Posts:** 125

I took a break from poker for a couple of weeks. I was playing too much and got a little burned out. This happened in my first session back.

I could tell I was refreshed and happy to be playing after the first few hours I was back. It also helps that the deck punched me square in the jaw and I was destroying the table. My image was pretty good if not a little loose. I had shown down the nuts a few times and a set in big pots thus far. I was playing a lot of pots since I really did have some great cards.

On to the hand. The table has been pretty crazy and giving lots of action. We are playing 1/2.

There are 2 limpers to me and I see [9c]

from the cuttoff. I raise to $14. The big blind calls along with both limpers.

Pot size-56
Hero- $1500
V1- $600- Only stack size that really matters
V2- $400
V3- Don't remember

Flop is [9h]

. I see dollar signs! The big blind leads for $30 (V1), V2 calls and V3 folds. I decide to put in a min raise in hopes of trapping a jack or at least trying to squeeze a little more out of a flush draw. Both come along to the turn. Do you like this raise here? Should I smooth or raise more?

Pot size- 236

Turn is [6c]

no help to anyone drawing. It is checked to me and I want to squeeze another bet out of a flush draw and hopefully get raised by a jack. If someone is playing J9 or J6 they get my stack, I am not folding. I bet 75. V1 calls and V2 thinks then folds. How is my sizing here?

Pot size- 386

V1 has about 450 behind at this point (pardon me if the math is a tad off, but it should be pretty close to right). River is a [3c]

, again no help. V1 checks to me again. This is where I am really curious about opinions. I shove. It is not an obscenely large bet given the pot size and his stack size. A few friends of mine and I debated this hand after and they disagreed with my shove on the end and think I should have value bet. I saw it differently. Nothing but a jack or a hand that beats me

am not real worried about the hands that beat me at this point, if he played the nuts that well he deserves to double through) is calling on the end and a jack is probably calling any amount. A busted draw is folding to any bet. So why not bomb and make them pay the max if they are either calling anything or folding? What do you think of this logic?

NegligencePerSe · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:03 am

flop:
Yes, you should smooth or raise more. Haha, ok, I will specify. Min-raise says "i have a strong hand" and so does a raise (but for some reason a larger raise doesn't seem as strong), so if you are going to announce your hand make it worthwhile and get some value 90-120 range. This also makes getting stacks in much easier by river, a problem that actually comes up in this hand.

Smooth also conveys a lot of strength or a FD, but if a FD hits, you either gave a FD hand a "free" (as in didn't have to pay any more when he would've) card, or if he had a J he may fold now.

Cliff: raise to 100, to keep the FDs in (he'll be getting 3.5:1, but he'll be thinking of all the money he will get on top of that =))

Turn:
I hate your sizing here, it is incredibly too small. At this point you should be trying to stack a jack, not let him off as cheap as possible. If you bet more, he may not have the ability to fold river as he will feel invested (and the inability to think ahead on the turn is a common mistake at lower levels). Bet AT LEAST half pot.

River: I like your reasoning for the most part, but i think it's tailored toward nastier boards when you have ~thenuts. For example, you have Ak and the board runs out QKKA3 with the river 3 completing a flush - super easy "shove no matter what the pot is" type hand. I disagree with your thought that a jack is calling any bet here, because of the fact it's such a huge bet compared to the previous bets, and the pot.

In summary, you missed a lot of value because you didn't raise/bet big enough in earlier streets and now you are trying to make up for that. Quick fix: bet bigger before the river.

#1BuckeyeFan · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:05 am

I bet $75-$80 on the flop, I agree a min raise screams strength (better than a set), any jack calls or re-raises and if a flush wants to come along that much better. Assume they both call and there is $271, checked to you, I make a $200 bet again hoping for a J shove at this point with two flush draws out there...JMO.

Pokerdogg · **Joined:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:12 pm **Posts:** 3175

Agree with others, make the flop bet bigger. I like a raise to $80 here. Turn bet $150 (1/pot), and then the river is an easy shove into a $600 pot.

As played on the flop, the turn bet is way too small. I will bet at least $120, may be $150, and set up for a reasonable river allin.

As played on the turn, I agree with a shove more than a value bet. The way you played it, it looked almost like a semi-bluff on the flop and turn. Depending on your image (if you are a LAG), a shove on the river could be interpreted as a late ditch attempt to buy the pot. If he had a strong J, he will probably pay you off. Question is, will he pay off a $225 bet twice as often as a $450 bet?

jkinsey435 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:34 am

I too like the min raise and dislike the cheap turn bet. If one of the villains do have a jack, there's no way they're not going to call a half-pot or larger bet on the turn. The shove on the river is too much. I think maybe a pot size bet or 2 times the pot would be better and more conducive to a call from villain. Depending on the villain though, you could still get a call there because they might think you're bluffing. I'd still lean more towards a pot-sized bet here, if it were me. That's my .02 (probably not even worth .02

).

fightingillini · **Joined:** Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:36 am **Posts:** 665

Hate the minraise with all due respect. It usually screams a monster, which is what you have. You don't want V1 or V2 to be suspicious that their draw may be dead.

You need to raise more on the flop. I like $100. That would bring the pot to $216 and V1 would need $70 to call......he's not folding a flush draw to 3-1 pot odds. Same with V2. There's no hand that will call $30 more but fold to $70 more. A bigger raise will also represent a big pair charging a draw....you were the preflop raiser, so your range will have AA-QQ in it. This can make a V holding trip jacks more confident of their hand.

You need to bet more on the turn. Both V1 and V2 called your minraise.....likely one of them has a jack and the other a flush draw. You need to bet 1/2 the pot....$120.

While I understand your logic on the river, not many players are going to put in $600 with just trip jacks, especially given your line, which just screams a monster. If you would have spaced out the bets better, you could have shoved the river and gave V1 3-1 pot odds. Now it's much harder for V1 to fold an AJ/KJ type of hand.

vinnyboombots · **Joined:** Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:12 pm **Posts:** 1427

I don't know how J-9 or J-6 is "getting your stack" if you have them covered so big.

Anyway, I like the shove for one reason only: your stack size. It screams I missed my draw.

BentonBlakeman · **Joined:** Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:09 pm **Posts:** 1631

Sizing is so important when playing deep. Think several streets ahead and try to leave yourself a 3/4 to pot sized river bet. In this spot, raise to $85 on the flop, bet $135 on turn, and shove river for his last $375 or so into about a $500 pot. This should force all hands with a J to call.

TheJacob · **Joined:** Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:13 am **Posts:** 1417

You are deep here.

Having terrible sizing and being cute is a bad idea.

It means you won't get full value out of Jx hands(including KJ/AJ), but as you said you aren't folding to a better full house.

Your sizing makes it extremely easy to play perfectly against you. I can absolutely see myself bet/calling, check/calling and folding river with AJ.

How are you supposed to not have a full house here?
If anything your flop sizing should be larger than normal. Your hand is disguised on the flop. Would you rather be betting big when your hand is face up or when your opponent is unsure and has a tough spot?

Get as much in on the flop as possible. Its very difficult to fold a jack to a raise on the flop, its extremely easy to fold the river without a full house.

Also, keep in mind this isn't online poker. Your opponents likely aren't thinking in terms of bet to pot ratio. The dollar amount matters to them.

BentonBlakeman wrote:

Sizing is so important when playing deep. Think several streets ahead and try to leave yourself a 3/4 to pot sized river bet. In this spot, raise to $85 on the flop, bet $135 on turn, and shove river for his last $375 or so into about a $500 pot. This should force all hands with a J to call.

This looks like the same line to me with only slightly better sizing.
Its easiest to fold on the river.

Why make a small raise on flop, small turn bet, and giant river jam?

It makes it more likely we get flop or maybe even turn calls from combo draws or hands like TT or QQ, but it makes it less likely we get value out of a Jack.

I'd rather get full value from a J, make combo draws pay, and give my opponent a chance to spazz out with TT+.

I'd make it $110 on the flop.
$190 on turn.
Jam river ($286)

BentonBlakeman · **Joined:** Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:09 pm **Posts:** 1631

4x on the flop is too big and will possibly fold out draws, which is what we don't want. I am fine with sizing the turn bigger than I suggested, like maybe 170 instead of 135, leaving 340 to shove into 570 on the river. Otherwise I stand by my assessment. This hand did give me material for this weeks strategy article ( http://www.allvegaspoker.com/news_detail_512.html ) so thanks!

Thought this one was interesting

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