What did I get myself into?

GoPackGo · **Joined:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:40 pm **Posts:** 125

I decided to head to the local casino for some 1/2. I managed to put myself in a tough spot here. A little background first. I have been killing this table. Another table broke and all of a sudden I went from the big stack to someone having the same amount of chips as me. Casino rule is on a table change you can put as much in play as the biggest stack at the table.

Our V's:

V1- $400 behind, a fairly decent TAG
V2- $450 behind, sort of clueless
V3- $2000 behind, a really good lag
Hero- $2000 behind

V1 and V2 both limp in. V3 raises to $20. I have played a lot of hands against V3 and we have a lot of history. This is a typical steal raise from him. I am on the button and repop it to $60 with [5s]

. V3 knows as well as I this could be a monster just as easily as it could be rags. His raise can be the same. Both V1 and V2 call! That was unexpected to say the least! V3 seems to consider a raise then calls me. I pretty much hate my life at this point. I've built a big pot with 6 high, nice work! Flop is [5d]

. All of a sudden I hate my life a lot less! It is checked to me and I continue now with a good hand. I decide to bet the pot into a pot of $240. V1 overshoves, V2 folds and V3 smooths. I also call. I am not sure where V1 is at this point. V3 could have 34, 78, maybe even 9 10, A10, 1010, 66, 55, 77, 88, 99. His range is huge, but I am not hating my life quite yet.

V1 is all in
V3- $1540 behind
Hero $1540 behind
Pot is $1440 or so.

I am confused by the action, but given that V3 and I are so deep I can see him smoothing a draw here. There is a lot in there and a lot behind me yet also. Turn is [6s]

. OK, life is looking up! This pot is insanely big for 1/2 and figures to get a lot bigger before the end. I am really hoping he does not have 1010 at this point. It is checked to me. I want to keep him in the pot with his draws, so I make a smallish bet here (big for 1/2, small for the pot size. I do admit this might not have been the greatest bet in the world, I really do not have much experience playing this deep.) I bet $500. I wanted the bet to look like AA or KK (which I was supposed to have with the 3 bet right?). V3 smooths.

Pot is up to $2440 or so.
V3- $1000 behind
Hero $1000 behind

River is a [4c]

. V3 shoves. I puke in my mouth a little bit. I am getting 3.5 to 1 on a call with the 2nd nuts.

Couple of questions:

1. Is there anyway I am folding here?
2. What do you put V3 on at this point?
3. How often is the 2nd nuts good when you each are 1000bbs deep to start a hand?

Any input on how I played this hand up to this point?

JonFriedberg · **Posted:** Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:19 pm

1. No you are never folding!!

2. He could have several hands, any T, over pair, or more likely a missed draw like 78 (because of the lead shove on river which is often a bluff)

3. You actually have the 3rd nuts which I'd say is still usually good in this particular spot. If you got in with 1000bb's preflop, different story. But it smells like he was trying to draw against you, and then missed and fired a big bullet to get you to fold.

Your turn bet is a little small but given stack sizes I don't mind it as much. Typically I would say to bet more, but you wouldn't have given him a chance to bluff the river if you had bet more on the turn. Seemed to work pretty well.

What did he have??

Great post, btw!

BentonBlakeman · **Joined:** Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:09 pm **Posts:** 1631

I like the turn sizing, and would have been fine with a smaller bet like 350. It gives the illusion of more fold equity, it is going to get called 100% by his draws, it looks like he'll have more fold equity by open shoving river for nearly 1200 if he misses, and it doesn't affect our river bet if he checks the river bc we can comfortably shove 1200 into the pot and it's still only slitly larger than a half pot bet.

If he has TT so be it. This could be AA, TT, 87, or a bluff as far as range considerations go.

Always calling him, never folding. Hope you won!

GoPackGo · **Joined:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:40 pm **Posts:** 125

I will post the results in a day or so. I found this one interesting since it is rare for 2 players to be as deep stacked as we were preflop.

assenede · **Joined:** Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:14 am **Posts:** 343

Playing short, this is an easy decision.
Playing deep as you are, it requires some extra thought.
If we put ourselves in the shoes of V3, what would we do with
- an overpair
- a full house
- a draw that got there
- a busted draw or a bluff

1. The overpair should know that it is no good. With a straight on a paired board and two players in, an overpair (aces?) shove is a bad move. He will not get more action from you unless you have a hand that beats him, and will normally lose to the shove by the other V. It is basically a clear cut -ev move.

2. a full house. it could be 55, 44 or TT. All of these warrant the shove if he puts V1 on the overpair and H on a made drawing hand, which he beats. Your 56 is well disguised, so he might only be afraid of 66 if he holds the TT, or exactly be afraid of TT if he holds 44 or 55. This scenario seems likely. 55 or TT are the most likely hands here, given the fact that the 4 only came on the river. You are hoping he has 55 and not TT.

3. the draw that got there. Would he make that move with 78 ? Only if he was confident that you were not holding a full house. He must then be hoping that you and V1 both hold an overpair, which he should know is unlikely given the flop and turn bets. It depends on your image here. If you think your opponent could estimate you would follow this betting line with an overpair, his shove is an overbet. This scenario seems less likely for a decent V than the former.

4. A total bluff / busted draw.
Given the fact that V1 is already all-in, he would solely be playing for the sidepot. He must in this case be excluding your hand to be a full house or better, which has very little fold equity, as he is representing the made straight.

Bottom line: if V is decent, I would estimate the winning chances on 1 in 2 with pot odds of 3.5 to 1.

I'd call, hoping to see 55 here.

GoPackGo · **Joined:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:40 pm **Posts:** 125

assenede wrote:

Playing short, this is an easy decision.
Playing deep as you are, it requires some extra thought.
If we put ourselves in the shoes of V3, what would we do with
- an overpair
- a full house
- a draw that got there
- a busted draw or a bluff

1. The overpair should know that it is no good. With a straight on a paired board and two players in, an overpair (aces?) shove is a bad move. He will not get more action from you unless you have a hand that beats him, and will normally lose to the shove by the other V. It is basically a clear cut -ev move.

2. a full house. it could be 55, 44 or TT. All of these warrant the shove if he puts V1 on the overpair and H on a made drawing hand, which he beats. Your 56 is well disguised, so he might only be afraid of 66 if he holds the TT, or exactly be afraid of TT if he holds 44 or 55. This scenario seems likely. 55 or TT are the most likely hands here, given the fact that the 4 only came on the river. You are hoping he has 55 and not TT.

3. the draw that got there. Would he make that move with 78 ? Only if he was confident that you were not holding a full house. He must then be hoping that you and V1 both hold an overpair, which he should know is unlikely given the flop and turn bets. It depends on your image here. If you think your opponent could estimate you would follow this betting line with an overpair, his shove is an overbet. This scenario seems less likely for a decent V than the former.

4. A total bluff / busted draw.
Given the fact that V1 is already all-in, he would solely be playing for the sidepot. He must in this case be excluding your hand to be a full house or better, which has very little fold equity, as he is representing the made straight.

Bottom line: if V is decent, I would estimate the winning chances on 1 in 2 with pot odds of 3.5 to 1.

I'd call, hoping to see 55 here.

1. Understand we have a lot of history against one another and AA is going to be good a lot of the time against each other in this spot. I did not need a monster to bet here and he did not need one to call. He is not going to put me on a hand with a 6 in it IMO.

2. Given my range against him a full house is a possibility for sure. He knows I don't have air since I bet the turn, but I am not sure he thinks I am that strong at this point.

3. 78 is in both of our ranges in this hand. He sees another $1500 behind as do I. The initial all in is only a small portion of the pot. I do think 78 is a lot less likely for me as I did bet the turn and probably would have taken a free card on the turn if I was drawing.

4. I have $1000 behind and any shove I am getting 3.5 to 1. There are not a lot of strong hands I am folding on this river especially against an opponent I have logged thousands of hands against and know how wide his range is here. I played the pot kind of goofy as did he since we have so much history. The standard play won't work most of the time in this spot IMO.

The side pot is as big as the main pot on the turn. There is still a lot to be won or lost even without the player all-in. We are both still 500bbs deep here prior to the river action. He is capable of a river bluff here.

GoPackGo · **Joined:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:40 pm **Posts:** 125

The reason I brought up the question of folding on the river here is that I had 20% of my bankroll in play at the time. I know, I shouldn't have anything on the table I am not prepared to lose here, but up until the V joining the table I only had an effective stack of about $700. A day of +$1800 is a nice addition to my roll.

This might actually be a really good strategy article on bankroll management. Everyone has theories on how many buy-ins you should have etc, but how much of your total bankroll should you have on the table at one point?

GoPackGo · **Joined:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:40 pm **Posts:** 125

Hand conclusion:

I called, I am not good enough (or bad enough depends how you look at it) to make a Hemuthian laydown here. He got really unlucky and had the last 2 5s in the deck, so I 2 outered him on the turn. I thought the V3 played this pot very well. I really did not think he was as strong as he was. We both joked after the pot that we put so much thought into the hand when we could have just got it all in on the turn and saved some brain cells!

On a side note, V1 played the hand terribly IMO. He had AA and let 4 of us get to a flop when it was 3 bet. He simply could have 4 bet it preflop and taken it down. Does anyone see the merit in the way V1 played the hand?

On the plus side I scooped up the biggest pot I've ever seen in a 1/2 game. On the downside I think I took several years off of my heart's life with how hard it was beating lol

assenede · **Joined:** Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:14 am **Posts:** 343

Very nice hand indeed ...
Bankroll wise: I'd cash out when I multiply my buy-in by 5 or higher.
Sit out the waiting time and buy back in for a normal amount if you are starting to play with scared money or too high a portion of your bankroll to feel comfortable.

ValueTown · **Joined:** Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:32 pm **Posts:** 40

I know I'm a little late joining this thread, but I'd still like to comment. I've read the results and some other posts, so I will try to be completely objective here. First off, I LOVE hands like this. This situation is why we play the game. My heart is pumping for just reading the hand! You've made 3rd nuts and face a formidable V as you describe him. You are crazy deep for 1-2 and now have a competitive stack in this hand with you. So here is my take...

Preflop: I like the 3 bet here. If you trust your post flop play, then put pressure on V3. The other two callers have tiny stacks in comparison and should never be flatting your 3 bet. They played poorly.

Flop: Bottom two is so disguised here. Your range should be over pairs and sets ONLY on this flop. So V3, facing a pot sized bet and overshove, is getting great implied odds to call with 87, 74, 34 because he is getting your stack when he hits. So, I like your bet on the flop. And if V3 has you crushed, he feels he can trap you.

Turn: You make 3rd nuts with 6s full. Now you are almost certain to have the best. T6 can be discounted from V3s range as he would likely fold OOP to you regardless of history. So only TT beats you realistically. Your bet is very good here. I agree with Benton that it could've even been smaller to create the illusion of fold equity. But, 1/3 pot is nice. If you think your bet reaks of overpairs, then V3 folds T-x, but continues with 55 trapping, and 87 and 74 looking to stack when the draws gets there.

River: Now 87 made it. When V open shoves, he has polarized his range. He has straights, boats, or air. You beat every realistic holding but TT. If V is putting you on AA or KK, then he knows you are getting the right odds to call when he beats you. So that makes me think he is betting for value, so throw out bluffs. He has exactly TT, 55, or 87. You win 2/3 and are getting 3.5-1 on a call. To me this is a call 100% of the time. Puke if he has TT, but get your money in.

Congrats on the monster. It's always good to be on the winning side of those! Cool history with your V too. Table dynamics like that are a lot of fun. Well played.

What did I get myself into?

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