Making a living playing poker? Very few can!

mike886 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:23 am

I was looking at some old threads today and it is amazing that many think they can make a living playing poker. A few AVPers can, but for the most part, it is just a dream that will go up in smoke. It turns into a job like anything else and takes so much effort and discipline to play enough, survive the swings, not lose your entire roll. How about some of you who have tried it sharing your thoughts?

Tucson Jim · **Joined:** Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:18 pm **Posts:** 613

I would like to also know what limits they play. One dealer/player I knew said he couldn't make any money at less than $15/30 limit or 2/5 no limit. Is this true or can one make a living at the lower limits?

And what income level are we talking when we say 'living'. $40k a year? More? Less? Very interesting topic that can add some realistic expectations compared with idealistic pie in the sky dreaming.

Of course those who do play for a living probably don't have the time or inclination to blog about their tactics.

psand · **Joined:** Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am **Posts:** 4325

Tucson Jim wrote:

I would like to also know what limits they play. One dealer/player I knew said he couldn't make any money at less than $15/30 limit or 2/5 no limit. Is this true or can one make a living at the lower limits?

And what income level are we talking when we say 'living'. $40k a year? More? Less? Very interesting topic that can add some realistic expectations compared with idealistic pie in the sky dreaming.

Of course those who do play for a living probably don't have the time or inclination to blog about their tactics.

i meet tons of people who claim to make a living playing live $1-$2 NL. Of all of the ones who make this claim there is exactly 1 I believe ----- Rakewell. (I believe that the others believe it ...... I just think they are not being honest with themselves ..... they may be winning players overall but its not enough to be a winning player ...... you need to consistently be able to win enough to support yourself and survive through the inevitable bad runs.) I am far more inclined to believe the possibility of making a living at these smaller games playing online because of the opportunity to cheat online and also the opportunity for a winning player to multi-table.

The others I know generally have other sources of support (trust funds/investments/savings/spouses/parents/student loans) or in the case of TBC simply have an existence/living standard below what I consider making a living.

I know a lot of people get angry when I say this.

One AVPer i said this to became visibly angry that I yelled at me that he could document his hourly win rate ..... He is no longer playing for a living.......

Pokerdogg · **Joined:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:12 pm **Posts:** 3175

Tucson Jim wrote:

I would like to also know what limits they play. One dealer/player I knew said he couldn't make any money at less than $15/30 limit or 2/5 no limit. Is this true or can one make a living at the lower limits?

And what income level are we talking when we say 'living'. $40k a year? More? Less? Very interesting topic that can add some realistic expectations compared with idealistic pie in the sky dreaming.

Of course those who do play for a living probably don't have the time or inclination to blog about their tactics.

Those are good questions. Let's look at it this way, there are lots of people working at low level jobs, making and surviving on minimum wages (or close to). Are these people making a living, I would certainly think so.

Now look at what limit can a good player realistically expect to clear minimum wages. Certainly it should be possible to do that at 1/2 NL game. A number of AVPers have reported $20+/hr at 1/2, so making $10/hr should be quite doable.

At $20/hr, making $40k a year is equally doable. By extension, a good 2/5 player should be able to make $80k a year. Of course lots of factors can affect that win/rate, not the least a sufficient cash reserve (aka bankroll) to ride out the negative swings, and to prevent excess pressure due to low bankroll, that will negatively impact your winrate.

I am of two minds concerning the age versus likelihood of success in playing for a living. On the one hand, being young usually means less financial obligations, you can live cheaply can don't need to make as much. You can build up your bankroll and more up limit easier. On the other hand, being older gives you more life experience, consequently more emotional fortitude to handle the stress and pressure of playing for a living. But being older usually mean more expenses (mortgage, family, etc.), which puts on more pressure, and make it much harder to build up your bankroll and move up limit. (I belong in the second camp).

psand · **Joined:** Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am **Posts:** 4325

Pokerdogg wrote:

Those are good questions. Let's look at it this way, there are lots of people working at low level jobs, making and surviving on minimum wages (or close to). Are these people making a living, I would certainly think so.

I'm not so sure this entirely comparable. People getting by on minimum wage are often part of multi-paycheck families wand would not be getting by on there own, and the younger ones may be living with parents etc... many are working more than one job themselves.

second the security of an actual job offers people some advantages that help them get by. Want to rent an apartment......who has a better chance the guy with the low paying job that the landlord can confirm or the guy who plays poker for a living? Need a credit card? Payday loan? these guys with low paying jobs are often living on low paying jobs plus credit (getting deeper and deeper into debt which isn't really making a living)

rayman89113 · **Joined:** Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:45 pm **Posts:** 239

Every-so-often this question arises. Psand for whatever his reasons usually falls on the side of the sceptic. However, I can tell you that there are many "nits", "rocks", or promo chasers making a "living" here in vegas in $1-$2NL. How many? My guess is probably 50-100 who make a "living" solely off the earnings of $1-$2NL and the associated promos. I don't think that Psand would say that they are making a "living" to his definition, and that is why I was using the quotes.

To the chagrin of many of those just mentioned, let me give some numbers. If you are good (seriously good) you should be able to make $15-$20/hour at $1-$2 with proper game selection. That is where I am at, and I had even done better until the demise of the Hard Rock graveyard promotions. There are a few who are even better than this and average $20+/hour. These are my heroes, that I am trying to figure out, and have been trying to figure out for my 18 years playing in vegas. Can you make a living from a job that pays $15-$20/hour cash? Of course you can. You would probably have to live in an apartment, maybe ride the bus (I do have a new car, altho' it is a XFE Cobalt), and be otherwise frugal (medical/dental?).

Now, in the interests of full disclosure, I am one of those trust fund/rich wife players that Psand refers to. I volunteer 30-35 hours/week of my time at my church (http://www.pokerplayer4Jesus.com). However, I still play 125 hours/mo. live and about half-as-much more online. And that brings up another point, you don't need to move to vegas to make this kind of living. You can make it online with a marginally winning game, rakebake and promotions. You just have to be seriously good, and that means to constantly improving your game as well. The advantage of playing online is that you can do it from anywhere in the world (I currently know a couple who lives in Saipan and does this).

Where I will be in harmony with Psand is that over my 18 years, I have seen countless poker players come to vegas to make a living. Almost none ever make it.

zippyboy · **Posted:** Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:40 am

Were you at Ballys last night, rayman? Seat 9 or 10 of that front table?

rayman89113 · **Joined:** Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:45 pm **Posts:** 239

Pokerdogg wrote:

At $20/hr, making $40k a year is equally doable. By extension, a good 2/5 player should be able to make $80k a year.

I am of two minds concerning the age versus likelihood of success in playing for a living. On the one hand, being young usually means less financial obligations, you can live cheaply can don't need to make as much. You can build up your bankroll and more up limit easier. On the other hand, being older gives you more life experience, consequently more emotional fortitude to handle the stress and pressure of playing for a living. But being older usually mean more expenses (mortgage, family, etc.), which puts on more pressure, and make it much harder to build up your bankroll and move up limit. (I belong in the second camp).

The statement: "By extension, a good 2/5 player should be able to make $80k a year." is probably not true from my experience. (The reasoning would have to be that the skill of the players at $1/$2 and $2/$5 would be essentially the same, it's just the blinds that have gone up.) But I do find the players are better at $2/$5NL. More significantly, there are few, if any promotions available to the $2/$5NL & above player, as opposed to the $1/$2NL player (Caesar's being an exception). As stated above, I am currently doing $15-$20/hour at $1/$2NL, but when I switch to $2/$5NL (Aria & MGM are the best) I am in the $25-$30/hour and it is usually closer to $25 than $30.

The concept of age is a good point of discussion. I am 58, my kids are raised, I'm a vet on VA, and I have substantial assets even after the real estate crash. If I were 30 with 2 kids, no way I could do this. The guys I see out there who are doing this full-time are usually very young (just legal), single bachelors (why is it that there are virtually no women $1/$2NL nits...sanity an issue here?), or old farts like myself.

zippyboy · **Posted:** Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:49 am

psand wrote:

i meet tons of people who claim to make a living playing live $1-$2 NL. Of all of the ones who make this claim there is exactly 1 I believe ----- Rakewell. (I believe that the others believe it ......

I figured we could add apollo and Ian to that list, but you may know them better than I do.

I know there are many regulars at the Rio I play with who don't have jobs. And I don't mean they're retired with pensions. I mean 20- and 30-somethings who are there at all hours, as likely to be there at 4am or at 4pm. They don't post on here, but I'm certain they're making a living at it. I've discussed it with them. And others that I see all over town at other HET properties. We just nod to each other in recognition and try to get our share of the pie.

I doubt the OP will get any true numbers here because it's a private matter to us. An answer too high will seem like bragging or lying. An answer too small will seem like we're losers. We all have bad days and winning days.

rayman89113 · **Joined:** Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:45 pm **Posts:** 239

zippyboy wrote:

Were you at Ballys last night, rayman? Seat 9 or 10 of that front table?

Yes, I was at Bally's last night. Changed seats a lot (as usual) at the front table closest to the bar. Was wearing LV 51's baseball cap with dark sunglasses and a blue long-sleeve shirt. Made the typical $80 for 4 1/2 hours ($17.78/hr).

Making a living playing poker? Very few can!

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