Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:25 am Posts: 477 Location: Southern California
OK, I hope this doesn't seem too elementary. As I've mentioned I'm used to limit games and am now playing more and more No Limit. I know how to play a flush draw in Limit, but do I know what I'm doing with the same draw in No Limit? Here's a hand from last week and you tell me!
1/2 NL game. Hero-$140, should have really tight image. V1-$160, tight player, seemed like a tough, knowledgeable recreational player. Based on conversations he was having with V2, he is well read on poker strategy. Just won a decent pot by calling a bluff after tanking for about 5 minutes. Seemed to cost him a few years off his life. V2-$250. This one is interesting. Claimed to be a poker coach from twoplustwo. I have no reason to question this based on his play, and the discussions he was having with V1 were high level. But I must say he was tighter than I would expect a pro to be; he limped in a lot more than he raised.
V1 raises to $7 UTG. A pretty standard raise for the table. One caller and then V2 on the button also calls. I am in BB and see A/10d. I call as well.
Flop is Qd, 5d, 7c. I flopped the nut flush draw.
I check. V1 bets $20. First caller folds. V2 thinks for a bit but calls.
Hero thinks for awhile. Getting 3 to 1 for my draw but I think that at least one of the two will pay me off if I hit a flush. So I call.
Turn is 2h, a total blank. V1 now bets $40. V2 tanks for like five minutes. Finally he calls.
My gut told me V2 was thinking of folding, but called. I figure I am getting 4 to 1 on my nut flush draw, so easy call for me. I call.
OK, I'll keep with the tradition of not posting the results yet until I get some feedback.
So....what do you think of my play so far?
And then.....how should I have played it if I hit my flush? How about if I miss?
Pre-Flop: The call here is standard. You are getting good odds with a decent hand. Here, you need to be careful when flopping top pair as it will often not be good enough (which is generally more true the bigger the pot gets).
After Flop: I like the check call here. Some may advocate check raising here, which has some merit too. However, when an opponent has a hand, you end up getting all the money in on the flop as a definite underdog. Getting the money in pre-flop with a flush draw is only a decent idea when you hold two overs, which you believe to be live, to go with your nut flush draw. So, again, I would say you took the standard line here.
Turn: I agree with this call, however, I might not call this "easy". With one card to come, you will hit your flush roughly 18% of the time (nine outs times 2% per out, as a simple estimation). So, you need a bit better 4-to-1 to break even. You don't quite have that, but you can hope to get paid on the river. The problem here is acting first makes this much more difficult. I call, with the plan of shoving my last $80 if the river hits. The pot has swelled to over $200, so I see no reason to contemplate betting less than the rest of my stack here. With any "luck", V2 will also be on a flush draw and will call. However, if V2 is on a flush draw, we are only 14% to hit here (two of our outs are now not available in the deck).
If the flush hits, V1 should clearly not be betting. Given V1's two bets, I would put his range on A-A, K-K, K-Q, or A-Q. There is a small chance he shows J-J or 10-10 here as well, although he really should not have been these weaker hands a 2nd time against multiple callers. The tighter he is, the less and less likely these last two hands become. I really think he shows AA, KK, KQ, or AQ about 80% of the time. He might also show QQ here too, but his smallish turn bet (less than half pot) to me is more likely a weak bet, not a strong bet. With a stronger hand, and multiple callers, he should have more aggressively bet out the several draws that this flop presented.
I can't quite put V2 on a hand. Maybe a weak Queen. Maybe a weak flush draw. Maybe a straight draw. I think a set would have protected itself by raising on the turn. So, I don't expect V2 to have a hand strong enough to bet the river UNLESS HE HAS A WEAK FLUSH. However, if he has a weak flush, he still may well call your bet unless he has a very small flush. So, I think you have more to gain, hoping the large size of the pot will encourage one of your two opponents to call you on the river if you hit.
With V1 seeming to be fairly strong - and your stack being relatively small compared to the size of the pot - I would strongly discourage a river bluff if you miss your flush draw on the river.
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am Posts: 3912 Location: Manassas, VA
I prob check raise flop hoping I have 12 outs and fold equity and get it in if I have to but calling is def fine too. Turn is easy call. Bet river if u hit or fold I u miss
Per your style I think just callin flop like u would in limit is fine. Check raise is dangerous in 4 way pot as the bet means he prob likes his hand.
Don't get any coaching from V2
Edited: Since I realize my suggestion is due to an aggro mood
_________________ - pls excuse my typos... I'm prob on my iPhone
With your stack less than 100 big blinds though I would have opted for a flop check raise and turn shove. You won't fold out top pair but you will fold out some hands that are beating you plus some hands that may make a better hand than you on the turn.
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:25 am Posts: 477 Location: Southern California
BentonBlakeman wrote:
Yeah, fine as played. Shove river if u hit.
With your stack less than 100 big blinds though I would have opted for a flop check raise and turn shove. You won't fold out top pair but you will fold out some hands that are beating you plus some hands that may make a better hand than you on the turn.
How much would you bet on the flop if you check raise as you suggest? And I assume the turn shove is the same whether I hit the flush or not?
With your stack less than 100 big blinds though I would have opted for a flop check raise and turn shove. You won't fold out top pair but you will fold out some hands that are beating you plus some hands that may make a better hand than you on the turn.
How much would you bet on the flop if you check raise as you suggest? And I assume the turn shove is the same whether I hit the flush or not?
I thought you had 180. Looking back I see you started with 140. Based on that I would have just check raised all in on the flop since you don't have enough to check raise and then bet the turn all in.
If you started with 180 or 200 then I would have check raised flop to 65 and shoved any turn whether we make flush or not.
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:25 am Posts: 477 Location: Southern California
Thanks for the all the feedback, now here's the result.
The river was a total blank, missed my flush. Of course I checked, intending to fold to any bet.
To my surprise, both V1 and V2 checked as well. So there was no action on the river.
V1 showed AQ off, pretty much what I expected. Then V2 shocked the both of us turning over KK to take down the pot. V1 commented on his not 3-betting pre-flop, but V2 didn't offer an explanation. I mucked without showing my Ace high.
Here's what made it more interesting. Both players looked to me and and admitted they were scared to death of me, thinking I had them both from the flop. V2 actually said he thought I might have flopped a set.
I just gave them a blank stare. I thought of offering to tell V2 what I had for a free evaluation of how I played it, but decided not to.
Anyway, their reaction made the hand a lot more noteworthy for me than it otherwise would have been. And their fear of me made me wonder if indeed I could have pulled off a river bluff. Clearly they didn't bet the the river because they thought I had them beat or worse, I would check-raise them. I actually considered bluffing there for a second because I thought V1 might be vulnerable to it due to the hand I described earlier. But I thought selling it to both of them would be unlikely.
I'm confused as to whether their fear of me was do to respect for me or a total lack of respect. I'm thinking if I had a set, my play would have been awful. With two diamonds on the flop, how could I fail to protect my hand like that?
Anyway, comments on their play in view of the reaction I got would be welcomed. The two of them discussed the hand for quite awhile afterwards, and kept saying how they were worried about my hand. Or were they just blowing smoke?
BTW, as some suggested, I did consider a check-raise on the flop with my draw. I felt though that the only raise possible was a shove and I just didn't have enough experience in this situation to be confident that was a good move, that's why I just called.
First- their comments. I don't think they were blowing smoke. Considering your super tight image I'm sure they were very worried about you having a set. In reality though after you check called the turn they shouldn't have been worried as all rocks would check raise the flop or the turn with a set for protection. This is why I advocated a check raise all in on the flop, bc your image is so clean you'll have a lot of fold equity, plus when you get called you normally have 12 clean outs twice, so you're only a small dog to win. Villain 1 played fine considering his hand strength and protecting what he thought was the best hand. V2 chose to play his hand slow. I really don't mind his play although I would have 3 bet preflop with KK but I three bet a lot so when I do it people don't automatically know I have a big pair. If V2 rarely 3 bets then I'm fine with his call to not let everyone know his hand. Post flop he should have raised V1 but I don't mind his call. Once you call I can understand him being cautious. This is why he just called the turn bet by V1, because he was scared you were waiting in the wings to check raise with a set. After you just call though the jig is up for you. The river was not the time to bluff. Anyway, on the river when it checks to V2 he should be making a bet, and a BIG one, as he is repping a ton of missed draws by the Wayne played the hand. He is supposed to bet big and make it look like a bluff and capitalize on how slow he played his hand. He would almost always get called not only by AQ but by nearly any good one pair hand that V1 was betting with.
Now, realistically, even with your tight image if you would have check raised all in on the flop, you may have gotten either AQ or KK to fold, but likely not both. And you would have gotten stacked. BUT...... that's ok, because you cant worry about the results of one individual hand. With your image and that stack size, you'll get so many folds or get called and win so often that even though you would have gotten stacked here it still would have been the right play. Also, if y did this and got called and lost, people would notice and all of a sudden think you bluff. What a great thing to have them think about you since you play so tight! Rebuy and wait, then when you flop a big hand you can check raise all in and likely get called light because they will remember you doing this as a bluff. There's always a bright side, even when you get stacked because you can use that later to make the money back!
While your line was fine, acceptable, and totally standard, I like to always think of the proactive play that gives me the best chance to win the hand both immediately without a showdown or by making a hand if necessary.
Hope this helps and makes sense. And thanks for the great post and all of the details so that we could analyze it completely.
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:25 am Posts: 477 Location: Southern California
Thanks, Benton, I think I understand everything you've said.
It was an ok choice for V2 to slowplay his Kings, though one you wouldn't have likely made. He probably expected me to fold pre-flop (though I had called small raises pre-flop from the BB previously--and folded when the flop missed me). Certainly he expected me to fold to a $20 flop bet, but on the chance I might have hit the set he was guessing I was mining for, decided to hold off raising with his overpair right then.
So he expected either a fold or a check-raise from there, and was surprised to get a call from me instead. Now I realize the hesitation he had on both the flop and turn was not in deciding whether to call or fold but whether to call or raise. If I had folded on the flop he would have most definitely raised on the turn.
I still have to say if I had indeed flopped a set, not check-raising the flop would have been an huge mistake, so I'm thinking he felt I might have been so tight to the point of making a bad play there. Guess I'll never know exactly what was on his mind. If I was waiting for the river to check-raise a set--with two diamonds on the flop--wouldn't that make me a pretty bad player?
Anyway, appreciate your analysis. One more question for you. Supposed it played exactly as I described but instead of a blank I hit my nut flush on the river. How should I have played that?
I was first to act. Do I bet first (and how much?), hoping for a raise so I can shove? Do I shove right off the bat? Or do I go for the river check-raise? Now, as it turned out, since neither one of the V's bet the river without three diamonds on the board, neither was likely to bet with a third diamond out there. But I wouldn't have known that in advance.
So in the same situation next time but with the river card I wanted, how would you suggest I play it?
You only have about$80 left after calling turn and there is 180 in the pot so the river is an easy shove. Never checking with this stack as it will check through too often.
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