Hi,

I posted a couple weeks ago about being JoJo the idiot circus boy and not using what I know about poker at the table. I got some really good advice (for anybody interested here's the link:
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=16676)

This weekend, I went back to the same casino and played another long $1-3 no limit session (about 8 hours). JoJo generally stayed at home (except for hand #3 below) and I think I generally played pretty well and I know I avoided a lot of the mistakes I made in the previous session. That said I still posted a $175 loss. I think some of it was just bad cards but I also think I still have a long way to go with my no limit cash game. So, I'm going to post a few hands and see if I can't get some advice to help me improve.

Hand #1 -- been playing about 3 hours, villain was at table table whole time and I've player some tourneys around Cleveland with him. I know he's a good player and I suspect he knows I'm fairly tight. I have A-Q suited on button and about my initial $300 buy in in front of me. There are 1 maybe 2 limpers ahead of me; I popped it to $15. Villain re-raises to $40 from the big blind and it folds back to me. I decide that he might be doing this with a mid pair and decide to flat call. I totally miss the flop and he bets out about $60, I fold. Should I have I have just folded preflop; should I have fired in a big 4 bet? Did I take the absolutely worst line possible on this hand?

Hand #2 -- next orbit, same villain. I'm in the small blind and he straddled, it folded to me and I have a weak suited A (maybe A-7 of spades). I decide to raise to $15 again. He flat calls. Flop was J-10-9 with 2 hearts and no spades. I decided to try to just take it with a $25 C-bet and villain raises to $75. Since I've got no hand and no draw, I looked at him and said "you hit it that hard?" My gut tells me he did and I fold. Should I raise in that spot, knowing I'll be playing out of position? If so, should I be C-betting on that board?

Hand #3 -- about 6 hours into session; different villain but he's been at table whole time I have been. I know he plays moderately loose and is willing to bluff. We've been joking about "how loose" a player I am. I started it by moving the button and telling the dealer I figured I ought to do something since I've been playing so few hands and the villain picked up on it and we've been going back and forth for a while. I have about $200 in front of me and he has me slightly covered. The table is either 6 or 7 handed at this point and has been pretty passive, although there has been a lot of straddling. I am in the cutoff with A-4 suited. There's a straddle and 2 calls, so I call, the button folds and the the villain calls the straddle from the big blind (pot about $30). Flop is 8-3-3 with 2 spades and nothing in my suit. Villain bets out and it folds to me. For some reason I don't believe him and I flat. He says "I know what you have." Here's when JoJo comes back because when he the turn comes an offsuit 5, I don't fire after he checked to me. I thought about it, but didn't.

Hand #4 -- about a half hour later. Same villain we are both still around $200 and table is still 7 handed but a new player sits between me and the villain. I am on button with A-10 off and he straddled. UTG limps and then it folds to me and for some reason I decide to flat -- in retrospect I should be raising here since A-10 is better than the 3 random hands in the blinds and straddle and because I know the UTG has been limping with a lot of hands (pot about $15 after rake). Anyhow, flop is 8-8-6 and it checks to me. I check behind. Turn is and it checks to me again and I again miss a shot and check. River is a 9, which completes some random straights. Villain bets out $15 and it folds to me. For some reason I don't quite believe him, I actually paused and consider raising to $35 but I fold and he turned over a bluff of 5-4 off. Once again, did I take about the worst possible line on this hand?

Hand #5 -- about 30 minutes later and one I played well. They collapsed 1 table and we are 10 handed and I'm sitting on about $170. Villain is to my immediate left and we've been playing together for whole session. He's a solid but fairly ABC player and has maybe $200 in front of him. I am in late position (cutoff or cutoff - 1) and there are 2 limpers in front, table is still playing passive. I have 2-2 and call, villain raises but only to 11. The button and blinds fold but the 2 limpers call and I close the action with a call (pot about $40 after rake). Flop is 8-4-2 rainbow. It checks to me and I check my set for the standard "check to the raiser" He bets $35 and it folds back to me. I was debating a flat or a check-raise but as I was thinking, I look at him and he has a "just do it, punk" stare, which I interpret as really strong. From the session, I couldn't put him on a raise with 4-4, so I figure it has to be A-A, maybe K-K or Q-Q or possibly 8-8. I decided if he had 8-8, I was going home broke. So, I min raised to $70, and he shoves. I snap call. He had A-A and my set held up.

Hand #6 -- another one I played pretty well and a play I don't make 3 weeks ago. Villain is relatively new to table (been there an hour or so) is sitting on about $100 and playing really, really snug and is to my immediate left. He is also fairly passive and is visibly frustrated. He's been around for some of the joking about me being tight. I have a little over $300 after my double up. I am on the button, there is 1 limper and I look down at Q-J suited. I decide to raise it up and take the lead. So, I pop it to $15. The villain calls from the small blind, which tells me he is sitting on a pretty decent ace or a middle pair. We see the flop heads up (pot about $30 after rake). Flop is 3 lowish cards (something like 2-5-7 rainbow) -- honestly, I knew I totally whiffed and had mentally given up the hand when I so don't remember the board perfectly. He checks and I check behind. Turn is a 10 and it goes check-check. River is a 9, and so if I got the flop right there's a weird backdoor straight with J-8 or 6-8 out there but no flush possible. The guy checks again and I almost checked behind. But I paused, looked at him and decided that he had absolutely nothing. I also thought "this guy is so frustrated and so not thinking right that even though a bet by me seems totally unbelievable, I think it might work." So, I fire out $25. He pauses for maybe a minute and finally folds. It worked, but I have a question: should I have C-bet the flop and tried to take it right then but also open myself up to the check-raise if he did have a middle pair and flopped the set? If not, is a turn bet a better line than the river bet?

Also, I have a more general question. I know I play a tight game and am probably too ABC for my own good. I've been trying to mix it up by raising more in position with hands like Q-J suited, middle suited connectors (like 7-8 suited) and some weaker suited Aces. When I'm not getting even hands that good and the table is joking about how tight I am playing, should I be playing off of that image by either raising from early position with some of the weaker end of my "mixing it up range" (e.g., something like a 5-6 or even a 5-7 suited) and playing it like I have aces? Also, should I be thinking about firing a raise from late position with a weaker hand like K-5 suited or K-10 offsuit, and again playing like I have aces just to mix up my game even further? Thanks!

Dave

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The opinions in this post are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Poker Atlas, AVP or PokerTrip Enterprises.

Hi Dave,

I hope some of my comments in your previous post helped you.
I'm glad to hear that your alter-ego, JoJo, stayed home most of the session!

IMO, when starting to play no-limit I highly suggest avoiding Ace, Rag altogether. Just fold them. Even for an experienced player Ace, Rag is tough to play.
It's tough to win a big Pot with Ace, Rag unless you flop two pair or better. It's even worse if you know that your opponents are going to put pressure on you. In many situations, you'll have to play them too passively to make any real money and you'll likely leak money over time. (at least until you get more experienced)

To this day, I don't play Ace, Rag unless I have great reads on everyone at the table (takes a bit of time) and I'm mid position or later.
If folding Ace, Rag hands leaves you in a spot where you image is too tight, I'd suggest replacing Ace, Rag with low connectors in late position. Maybe even some one gappers....
At least if you hit these hands you are unlikely to be completely dominated and you'll catch many opponents offguard.

On to your hands:

Hand #1:
You played this just fine. Unless the Villain is Uber tight, you should be willing to call a 3-bet with AQ suited. Sometimes you'll miss. Honestly, don't try to outthink yourself in spots like this. A solid Villain is saying he has a hand....believe him and move on.

Hand #2:
See my thought on Ace, Rag above. Let's say you hit you Ace on the flop and make a bet. You get called in two spots. What do you do on the Turn? Hopefully, you can start to see the issues with playing Ace, Rag especially out of position.

Hand #3:
Yeah. If you're going to float the Flop, you need to fire the Turn if he gives you an opening. Again, see my comments about Ace, Rag.

Hand #4:
With your image and position, you need to pick up this "free money". Especially in position, be willing to fire at any Pot that is checked to you on the Flop. (it doesn't matter what you have) If you can pick up an extra $10 or $20 in limped orphaned Pots, think about how that helps the hourly rate.
At $1/3, most players will fold anything that's not top pair or better, fire with Air and take down the free money.

Hand #5:
Nice! Well played...you got all the money in the middle with the best of it.

Hand #6:
Good play pre-flop, but you need to be willing to follow thru. You should be continuation betting 60% to 70% of flops regardless if you connect. Based on your image, these continuation bets will work more often than not. (at least they will be +EV in the long run) If you are check raised, fold and move on.

I'd say use your image to be more aggressive especially in late position. You should be using that image to pick up orphaned Pots and using scare cards.

I would also say that with many hands you need to be willing to fire two barrels with Air if you raised pre-flop. It's pretty common for Villian's to float flops (especially ragged flops).

Just my $0.02

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"Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is, I'm not. I honestly just feel that America is the best country and the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism" ~ Kenny Powers

Your comments did definitely help. Thanks!

On Hand 2 -- I know it's A-rag, but on this one I raised mainly because it had folded to me in the small blind, so I had 2 random hands against me (big blind and straddle). I didn't like that I'd be out of position, but it seemed like a spot to use my image and try to take some of the "orphan money" as you put it. Maybe I need to work on that more strictly in position.

On Hand 3 -- I knew I blew it. The guy all but told me he put me on a 3 for trips and I didn't fire. Just stupid play.

I like the idea of generally staying away from Ace-rag and I know I need to get more aggressive at firing from position, even when I have air. I think those are two things I clearly need to work on. Your point about firing twice is also well taken. Having played a lot of limit, I should know better because I do it in that setting, but I haven't learned to do it in no limit.

Actually, I do generally fire at a large share of flops when I am the preflop raiser -- I might even be higher than 70%. Hand #6 was one where I didn't because of the villain. When I didn't I probably should have fired on the turn (but as I mentioned I had really given up on the hand). I did at least, pause after his 3rd check, which allowed me to make a good read and follow through with a bet to pick up the pot. But, I should have made that read after the 2nd check to give myself a better chance.

Thanks again!

Dave

_________________
The opinions in this post are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Poker Atlas, AVP or PokerTrip Enterprises.

Hi Dave. I also live in the general Cleveland, OH area. I haven't made it up to Erie yet, but I'm looking forward to the Horseshoe Cleveland opening this spring/summer.

I made the switch from limit to NL a few years ago, and I know it is a struggle and can be intimidating. I'll provide my feedback on your hands.

#1
Villians play very well could have just been to 3 bet you because he figured you for a position raise on two limpers. However, I'm not real willing to go to war with A high and no draw, and without knowing villian could make the 3 bet light, I don't know that I want to 4 bet with AQs. I'm probably somewhat a little weak tight when faced with agression back at me.

#2
Your raise is WAAYYY too little for a straddle hand. He already has 6 in the pot, he isn't going to fold for only 9 more. Raising to 20 or 25 here is better IMO. This villian is going to play very aggro when he straddles. Your too little preflop raise got you in a bad spot, it could have hit him, or not, he is really ATC at this point.

#3
What did villian bet on the flop? You are in a limped pot, so the call pre is fine with a speculative hand like that. The size of the bet you called is pretty important information here IMO. I think if you wanted to make a play here, you needed to be raising the flop, not calling.

#4
Yes, you should have raised. I would have gone to 25 or 30. As played, I think once you check the flop, you are done with the hand unless you improve. A pot'ish sized bet on the flop may have taken it down.

#5
standard

#6
Eh, I think a cbet on flop is fine, and fold to a check-raise based on your read of villian.

As for too ABC and the table joking you were tight. IMO, 1/2, 1/3 NL ABC will do very well. In general these players are not paying enough attention to you for you to really need to "balance your range". If you were raising and got everyone to fold, then you can start raising light and playing to your image. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone comment on how tight someone was at a table as they continued to call their preflop raises with trash. Until you see their actions match their words, don't worry about your image.

ThunderEagle,

Good to hear from a fellow Clevelander. I'm in Willoughby. So while Erie is a lot shorter commute than any of the other "local" casinos, like The Rivers, Seneca or Mountaineer, I too am waiting for the Horseshoe to open. It'll cut my poker commute from about 90 minutes to around 20 or 30. Erie's room is fine -- 9 tables and rarely runs a limit game, part of the reason I've been messing around in no limit. But, it is upstairs from the main casino by a bar, clubhouse and stage where they do live music some nights. So other than when there is live music, it doesn't get a lot of walk in traffic.


Sorry about that. Villain bet out half the pot $15.


Towards the end of the session (by hand #3 for sure), I was getting a lot of folds to my preflop raises; even if there was a call, it was generally from the straddle or big blind and then it was check-fold if I C-bet. I think that is why I was wondering about opening up my range. Also, I think it is why I did fire in a raise with the Q-J suited on hand #6.

Dave

_________________
The opinions in this post are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Poker Atlas, AVP or PokerTrip Enterprises.

Dave,

You sound a lot like me. Promise not to use that against me if we ever play together.

Since my hiatus last year, I've decided to go back to ABC poker but that doesn't work so well either so I find mixing it up once people have the perception that you're a tight player is a good move. I will only take it so far as to play a suited one gapper in late position though and will very rarely play ace rag as I find that gets me into trouble more often than not. Especially when most of the players have more in front than I do.

If you ever come out this way, do let me know.

_________________
Jess

Ace rags are the worst, you rarely flop a nut type hand, and are always wondering if you are in 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd place in a hand. My "worst" ace hand is usually ace-jack, and at that I better be suited and in late position....

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Views expressed are my own and not those of Green Valley Ranch, the WSOP, or AVP.

im not going to break down each hand at the moment but i can tell you that an overall theme in the hands you described is making some un needed risks and considerations for your average low stakes nl game, a patient abs/tag style will generally be most successful for the average player. on hands that forever reason be it you dont believe them or you feel you can rep something with your tight image, you should bet/raise much more aggressively to give yourself multiple options for taking the pot, once again though these should be few and far between at these stakes.

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"i dont feel like its possible for a woman to feel that murder is morally wrong if she isnt a republican and support the tea party" ~TBC

I'm sorry I should have articulated my point better on this hand. I think you played this well. There really are no problems with your line in this situation.

That said, the broader issue is that if you're playing Ace, Rag (especially out of position) you're setting yourself up for a lot of hard decisions over time.

I mention this because 2 of the 6 hands you posted involve Ace, Rag.




That's good. Just don't be too predictable....

_________________
"Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is, I'm not. I honestly just feel that America is the best country and the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism" ~ Kenny Powers

I made another trip, mainly to play a satellite tournament -- finished 4th or 20 with 2 getting entries, just went card dead at wrong time when there was a big jump in the blinds and got too short to make a push work. But, I also played a cash session of about 6 to 7 hours. Not great, but at least I finished positive. The cash session reinforced a couple of the lessons from this string of advice:
1) playing A-rag
2) firing a second barrel/being more aggressive.
3) Being better at "verbalizing my thinking" and at least as importantly for me "verbalizing a plan"

Here's the 4 hands of note -- 3 losses and my big double up (where i have some questions):

Hand 1 -- about an hour into cash game but villain was player who was at my table the entire tournament and who got one of the entries, so we've got a few hours of history already today. I know he's a pretty good player and I think he reads me as very tight. My mistake was not firing again. I had J-3 off in big blind and saw flop for free with 3 limpers -- Villain in the cutoff, tight old guy #1 on button and tight old guy #1 in small blind (pot about $10 after rake). Flop is 9-5-3 with 2 diamonds, it goes check-check and villain bets out $10. It folds to me and I look and him and decide he has nothing, so I flat. I didn't make a plan for the hand though because if I had, I'd have fired on the turn or check-raised. So, I then screwed up and didn't fire on the turn which was a blank. The river was a 3rd diamond and I decided to rep the flush. It obviously fooled my opponent because I froze him, he verbally replayed my bets and said, I"'m just going to call". I table my hand and say good call, he tables K-6 of diamonds for the 2nd nuts. So, I totally sold the diamond draw and honestly had him worried that I was playing not only a flush but the nut flush. Since I'd been friendly with villain, we talked a little about the hand and he said that he'd have called a flop check-raise, which I believe. He also told me it "scared the crap out of him" that I made the read that he had nothing on the flop. But, my takeaway is that when I make those reads, I need to make a plan on how to follow through because either a check-raise on the flop and 2nd barrel on the turn or possibly even firing at the turn out of position after floating wins me that pot. Also, obviously, making this sort of read/play is going to be easier to execute when I've got position.

Hand #2 -- About 3 hours into session. Villain has been at table maybe an hour or so and is very tight and generally passive and will call down with strong non-nut hands. She's bet out a few times and always been really strong. My mistake, playing an ace-rag. I have A-7 suited on the button, with 4 limpers in front of me, I decide to limp as well and both small blind and villain in big blind come along (pot about 15 after rake). Flop is A-7-9 rainbow. Small blind check and villain fires 10 at pot, I am only caller (pot about $30 after rake). Turn is 4 and villain fires $25, I have her read for a big A (with A-J or A-10 more likely than A-K or A-Q where she might have raised preflop) and I decide that it's time to take it down and raise to $75 -- probably a bit big but in the moment it felt right. She called. River was 10 and she checks. Given how passive she'd been, I could totally believe that she would check 2 pair or even a set on that board and one of the big aces I put her on A-!0, got there on the river, I checked behind. After I table my 2 pair, she tabled A-9 for a better 2 pair on the flop. Gross, but a problem I made myself and one that I could have minimized by raising to something like 25 or 30 on the flop to define her hand.

Hand #3 -- my big double up. I have A-A under the gun and raise to $15. Villain who I've played with sometime before and I know is pretty good but also a bit aggressive calls (pot about $30 after rake). Flop is - - . I fire $25 at the pot and villain calls (pot just under $80 with rake). At this point, I put him on A-K or K-Q. Turn is , I hate it, but it doesn't look like villain loves it and I have the ace of clubs, so I decide against this villain, I need to keep the lead. I fire $60 which was sort of a stupid bet size given that I only had $62 behind. Villain tanks and talks about hand out loud, he mentions that the turn gives him a lot of outs and that he hates to pay me off because my hand "smells like exactly A-K." Given that, I don't put him on a K and I think he most likely has something like Q-J or Q-10 of clubs. River is another K. At this point, I am fairly confident I have the best hand and while I don't love it, I decide if I'm going broke here, then it's because I am firing. So, I push my last $62 in. The villain tanks again, which makes me really nervous that he has something like K- or K- until he starts listing what he can't beat and it includes A-A. Ultimately he calls my bet "for information". He doesn't show after I table my A-A, but says he had a Q. as he's leaving the able a couple hours later he rants to a buddy about "how that guy went crazy with aces." So, I'm wondering other than the bet size on the turn which left me in no-man's land given what I had behind, is there something different I should have done? I rarely am that aggressive and I know it's something I need to work on, but did I take any really stupid risks in that pot? Was villain just pissed he paid me off?

Hand #4 -- I'm on button with A-Q; villain is new to table and I don't have a great read (in part because I've been busy eating dinner). I raise to $15 and she calls from big blind. My mistake I didn't fire again. I whiffed the board and we checked down she won with 4-4. Not a big pot, but an indication I need to keep the aggression up when I take the lead. Especially annoying because I had been raising and getting a lot of folds with flop C-bets but didn't do it here when it would likely have worked.

Thanks!

Dave

_________________
The opinions in this post are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Poker Atlas, AVP or PokerTrip Enterprises.