I see your point, but the point i was trying to make is that I feel it's unfair for people in this thread who don't think original poster is tipping enough to tell him to stop playing if he can't "afford" to tip. I just think stating we don't think he tips according to protocol is good enough and it's kind of high and mighty to tell him to stop playing.
I don't disagree with this ..... but I'm not certain I saw anybody tell him to stop playing.
Really? It seems like all the following posts pretty much said that. Not saying that they were done rudely, but they still said if this is how he's going to tip then he should find something else to do.
vookenmeister wrote:
Honestly, my personal opinion is harsh. Tipping is part of the game. just tip. If you can't afford to tip you should consider doing something else. I would say the same thing for eating out at a restaurant. It's part of the service. If you can't afford to tip while eating out at a restaurant then don't eat out.
SunshinesDad wrote:
I agree with vookenmeister above: If u can't afford to tip, don't play.
The Sledgehammer wrote:
Listen closely. " If you worry about giving up a buck or two (when you win a pot)a half hour or even a hour , then you can't afford to play the game. "
AdRock wrote:
Short answer: quit playing poker or at least quit playing so much or these games. But if you're trying to make money, find something else to do. Minimum wage is about twice what you're returning. Or get into a bigger game where you could actually make some money. If you're retired in Florida and spending 40 hours/week inside a poker room, somehow you're doing it wrong.
dotopo82 wrote:
This is an interesting thread. I am saying this with all do respect making $6 dollars an hour in a low game you could probably doing something more productive with your time. I know people who are making twice that on unemployment.
Even you basically said the same thing below.
psand wrote:
My suggestion is that with his return on 2000 hours of play .... He should stop thinking of himself as a professional player. He should consider himself a recreational player. And if he is relying on this for income he is shortchanging himself because certainly he could make more money in any number of other ways.
But that is not the same thing as saying don't play.
You're right, your quote and a few others didn't say "don't play" exactly, although a few post said exactly that. Yours was disguised as "you can make more money by doing x." Just bc someone can make more money by selling crack than being a doctor does that mean they should do it? I know that's far fetched.
Also, I never saw where the original poster said this is his livelihood. He did refer to himself as a grinder, but that doesn't constitute a pro. He asked for advice of how full time players do it but never called himself one.
YurmahmBStanken wrote:
Sure, 90% of players are recreationalists or losing players that don't mind throwing dollar after dollar because its entertainment or a side gig that may make money that night or not. But for the 10% of grinders (much less for FL players) that put in the time, it is expected to give back their winnings?....
Again, NL is different, where I could see someone who is killing the game, give much more than I have budgeted. Small stakes low limit is a different animal altogether. If there is someone who plays FL 4/8 or lower that is not a recreationalist or losing player (winning player), I would like to know how you maintain profit after tipping?
Making 1BB/hr is about tops of the line for FL. So how can any dealer expect to be tipped $1 per hand raked from a full time player when its a standard 3/6 game knowing that player only nets $6/hr?
Cant this just be person who loves poker and prides themselves on winning as much as possible when they play? I know his hours seem full time, but I also played 40 hours a week for 6 months while working 40 hours a week at the Palms before I quit my job. I did t consider poker my job, just something I spent 8 hours a day doingafter I got off from my job at the Palms.
Either way, full time or not, I just felt like he asked for advice about tipping and was given advice about if this is his profession he should find another one. He was also flat out told that if he didn't want to tip up to the standards that we tip then he shouldn't play. That's what I didn't like about the responses.
I tried to offer suggestions to actually answer his question about the best way to tip on his budget in a way where the dealer would receive something tangible and you responded with thus rather than explaining why my idea wouldnt work.
psand wrote:
He could buy a roll of raffle tickets and every time he wins a pot he could give the dealer a raffle ticket and then at the end of the year he could have a drawing for $500......
Personally, I hope the original poster took some of the good advice in this thread to heart and tips better, but if he doesn't I won't be the one telling him stop playing or find a new job, etc.
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am Posts: 3909 Location: Manassas, VA
zzyzx wrote:
vookenmeister wrote:
Let's not forget that in most casinos the poker rooms are barely profitable ( or they could make more money with slot in that space).
that's how the bean counters probably look at a poker room, but to view a poker room as a stand-alone profit center is really a mistake in my opinion.
first off, if you close the poker room and replace it with slots, it doesn't guarantee a casino will make more money, it only means they will have more slots. is every slot machine in use 100% of the time in a casino?
a smart casino operator knows that while a poker room may not be profitable by itself, it is important to offer poker since it can draw in other play in the casino. example, husband plays poker, wife is dumping money in a slot while he plays. just the other day, i saw a player give his wife over $200 in a 2 hour period to keep her busy playing slots while he played cards. i see this happen all the time, but the poker room doesn't get credit for the slot win, but if it hadn't been for the poker room, maybe the couple would have played in another casino that did offer poker.
so called "free drinks" cost the casino a lot more than operating a poker room. should the casino quit giving away drinks to players? how about the swimming pool, maybe they ought to close that down too, should they fill that place with slots also?
of course poker rooms exist to draw players into craps, etc. I prob didn't explain my point well enough. if people tip less, we'll get crappy dealers and thus people will enjoy it less. If people enjoy it less they won't play and it won't be a draw for other more profitable games. or it will cost so much more to pay dealers a higher salary that it won't be worth the draw to other games.
I like Adrock's restaurant example. It's a fine balance and the system exists today because of a certain percentage of tips on average. So if everybody starts tipping less, it will fail. simply put.
Of course some folks, like Mr. Pink, in reservoir Dogs don't believe in tipping... <great movie>
Mr. Pink: I'm very sorry the government taxes their tips, that's $&%#ed up. That ain't my fault. It would seem to me that waitresses are one of the many groups the government $&%# in the ass on a regular basis. Look, if you ask me to sign something that says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it, put it to a vote, I'll vote for it, but what I won't do is play ball. And as for this non-college bullshit I got two words for that: learn to $&%#in' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big $&%#in' surprise.
---
Nice Guy Eddie: C'mon, throw in a buck! Mr. Pink: Uh-uh, I don't tip. Nice Guy Eddie: You don't tip? Mr. Pink: Nah, I don't believe in it. Nice Guy Eddie: You don't believe in tipping? Mr. Blue: You know what these chicks make? They make $%#$. Mr. Pink: Don't give me that. She don't make enough money that she can quit. Nice Guy Eddie: I don't even know a $%#$ who'd have the balls to say that. Let me get this straight: you don't ever tip? Mr. Pink: I don't tip because society says I have to. All right, if someone deserves a tip, if they really put forth an effort, I'll give them something a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, it's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doing their job. Mr. Blue: Hey, our girl was nice. Mr. Pink: She was okay. She wasn't anything special. Mr. Blue: What's special? Take you in the back and suck your $%#$? Nice Guy Eddie: I'd go over twelve percent for that.
_________________ - pls excuse my typos... I'm prob on my iPhone
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:28 am Posts: 243 Location: Hutchinson, KS
SunshinesDad wrote:
Good dealers pay attention to the game, keep the pace of play moving, know and enforce the rules, and engage the players. These dealers get my best tips. Bad dealers do the opposite - they get the minimum. For example, one time I tipped a 2/5 dealer $5 in a losing hand because he called the villain on a string bet and saved me $200. Many players at the table (and the dealer) were surprised, but to me it was appropriate for the situation.
All in all, tipping is voluntary, not mandatory, so tip what you feel is appropriate based on the dealer, the table, and yourself and don't worry about analyzing the hell out of it.
I've been pondering the tipping issue for quite sometime as well. Oh how many times dealers have told me they don't have any control over the outcome of the game because they just deal the cards...and yet it appears to be common courtesy to tip a buck minimum for dragging anything more than a small pot. If the tip is essentially an appreciation for winning the pot, that would be illogical given the "we don't have any control over the game" statements I get.
Sunshines and Benton's introduction of tipping for quality of services rendered is an interesting one. Tipping because the dealer's decision saved you money, I'd be appreciative too because the dealer did their job well. Tipping because the dealer is doing a good job running a smooth game challenges the conventional etiquette of tipping after winning a pot of any substance. I haven't done a great job of self-enforcement, but I've set a general rule to not time until a dealer is about to rotate out...primarily as a means of rewarding a dealer if I've increased my stack during their time. Sunshine and Benton's thoughts have me rethinking the purpose of the tip. If it truly is an appreciation for their work, tipping shortly before they get up and not in conjunction with a pot that was won, would seem to be appropriate and could factor in the difficulty of the decisions that they had to make.
Conventional etiquette remains, like roulette, blackjack, and other table games, that dealers are tipped as an appreciation for a notable win.
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am Posts: 2916 Location: Seattle area
Dmuz75 wrote:
Why is it the subject of tipping brings out so much emotion? I hear all the time about how much tipping "costs" If this is your job, then it's an expense.
... (don't) Say that tipping a dealer eats into the bottom line, then throw the cute blonde waitress a redbird for bring you a $3 can of redbull
I think it's a psychological thing because of the process of tipping. (The mindset is) I win a pot through my own doing or through the randomness of the cards. Then I have to give you $1 of my money for doing your job. People don't complain about rake (aside from the $5 vs $4) and rake costs me 4-6x what tipping does. However the rake comes out of the pot before I get it. With a really smooth dealer you won't even notice him pulling the rake and jackpot. I played on a cruise ship once where at the end of the hand the dealer would count the pot, figure the rake, and put it back before pushing the pot (rather than raking $1 for each $10 bet) and it was much more noticeable. I've also played games where you pay time and people b*tch about the rake like you wouldn't believe. Kind of like the difference in gas tax (no one even notices they pay it) vs. Income tax you pay in a lump sum out of your savings.
Dmuz75 wrote:
Also, don't assume a dealer makes 30/hr..For every good down where you get 1-2$ every hand, theres that table of misfits and miserable bastards that stiff and you $2 for the half hour. Pluse dealers do not deal 8hrs a day! And if they do, they are not "in the box" soemtimes there is a lot of down time. You might deal for a half hour then be on break for an hour. Or you are a graveyard dealer, come in at midnight and the room goes dark at 2:00am, and now you have to sit in an empty room for 6 hors and making minimum wage
This is a really good point that I think escapes most players. Someone in this thread noted dealers make $9/hr (roughly right nationwide) plus if they deal 30 hands and hour (which is below average) and get $1/hand. That's $39/hour which would work out of $78K/year. That's a damn good salary for dealing.
What they miss is that almost no one really averages $1/hand in the long run. I bet it's closer to 75 cents. And dealers spend a fair amount of time dealing at a rate of < 30/hands an hour (like near 0) for the reasons you mention plus it's usually not a 40/hr week job. Have you really dealt downs where you got tipped $2? Where was that (don't answer) and why do you keep dealing there if the clientele are so miserable?
On a side, I'm not sure any of that matters. Is what people earn a deciding factor in how much to tip?
My table actually had a great conversation with one of the Aria dealers about tipping. He said that if he averaged $1 per pot in tips, he'd be completely pleased - i.e., he doesn't make $1 per pot.
He dealt at the Bellagio prior to the Aria opening, and he said that he (and most dealers) hated going into Bobby's room because the big game players are way worse tippers than the $1-2 guys. He mentioned $50K pots won without tips and figured that's why some guys don't play at the Aria's big room (since it takes an automatic tip).
I played with a local at Planet Hollywood who had a rule that he'd show his hand if someone toked $5 to the dealer. I liked that rule, though never had an opportunity to make use of it.
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am Posts: 1609 Location: GVR dealer/floor, previously worked at TI and WSOP
King Kashue wrote:
My table actually had a great conversation with one of the Aria dealers about tipping. He said that if he averaged $1 per pot in tips, he'd be completely pleased - i.e., he doesn't make $1 per pot.
He dealt at the Bellagio prior to the Aria opening, and he said that he (and most dealers) hated going into Bobby's room because the big game players are way worse tippers than the $1-2 guys. He mentioned $50K pots won without tips and figured that's why some guys don't play at the Aria's big room (since it takes an automatic tip).
I played with a local at Planet Hollywood who had a rule that he'd show his hand if someone toked $5 to the dealer. I liked that rule, though never had an opportunity to make use of it.
I love the $5 to the dealer for me to show rule, thank you
I've stated before and always will, I prefer tip wise to deal the "regular" limit and no limit games. Dealing the bigger games brings added pressure and frustration to not get toked for a big pot. The only part I do enjoy is observing the game closeup.
_________________ Views expressed are my own and not those of Green Valley Ranch, the WSOP, or AVP.
Have you really dealt downs where you got tipped $2? Where was that (don't answer) and why do you keep dealing there if the clientele are so miserable? [/quote]
I have had downs where I got $0. These things tend to be unusual. When you get that little its often in a shorthanded game. Or maybe something happens and you don;t even get to deal much of the time (fight at the table etc).
The first time I dealt a full down and got nothing it was a 5 handed game. Two couples who knew each other and were clearly not experiencd casino poker players..... and one little old lady. I kept pushing pots to the couples and getting no tips. I figured they didn;t know any better and hoped that when I finally pushed a pot to the old lady she would tip and these guys would realize that they hadn't been tipping me. So I finally push a pot to the old lady and .... nothing ..... oh well
dealing omaha can also be a tip killer. Many players do not tip on a chopped pot ..... so if you have a lot of chopped pots .... your not making anything.... plus the game is slower.
One night I got locked in dealing a heads up game between two players. One was a nit who probably never tipped anybody for anything. The other was a guy who never played before. 5 hours of dealing that heads up game without a break and I made a total of $6 tips all from the new guy.
Why do we not quit. Because these really bad games are anomalies. For the most part poker players are very generous. Sometimes you have these really bad downs. Sometimes you have really good downs. Overall we do pretty well. And most of the time when you have one of these downs .... its because you got a table full of players who don't understand poker tipping .... not a table full of cheap nits. They aren't doing it to be nasty ....
If you have a down where you push every pot to one player who doesn't tip you .... and at the end of the down as you get up the player throws you $2....... they aren't being cheap. They are being generous. Their mindset was to be nice to you .... so how can you be mad at them?
_________________ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -- George Orwell
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:25 am Posts: 474 Location: Southern California
Been following this thread from afar. But I thought of it last night at the MGM when a guy at the table didn't tip. A female player he had been quite chatty with commented on it, and he said he basically never tips at the poker table.
The girl pressed for an explanation and all he had was, "When I lose, no one tips me." This guy is a Vegas local, not sure if he is a grinder or just plays for fun. But I guess he is not popular among the Vegas dealers with this attitude.
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 6:16 am Posts: 103 Location: Las Vegas
robvegaspoker wrote:
Been following this thread from afar. But I thought of it last night at the MGM when a guy at the table didn't tip. A female player he had been quite chatty with commented on it, and he said he basically never tips at the poker table.
The girl pressed for an explanation and all he had was, "When I lose, no one tips me." This guy is a Vegas local, not sure if he is a grinder or just plays for fun. But I guess he is not popular among the Vegas dealers with this attitude.
You think? That player is referred to by the dealers as "Mr. Richard Cranium". In regards to that particular incident, I heard about it later, one of the dealers commented that he's looking forward to Mr. Cranium getting stacked for a large amount so the dealer can reach in their pocket and fish out a dollar and toss it to him.
And despite their reputation for politeness, Canadians seem to have another reputation for not tipping. If I see a foreigner not tipping, knowing that in some locales tipping the dealer is not allowed, when I win a pot, I may make a point to ask the dealer, "Are you allowed to accept gratuities?" That usually gets the point across.
Already responded to your PM, but again, nice playing w/ you the other night!
_________________ Q: What's the difference between an ass kisser and a brown noser? A: Depth perception.
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:25 am Posts: 474 Location: Southern California
buzzedsaw wrote:
You think? That player is referred to by the dealers as "Mr. Richard Cranium". In regards to that particular incident, I heard about it later, one of the dealers commented that he's looking forward to Mr. Cranium getting stacked for a large amount so the dealer can reach in their pocket and fish out a dollar and toss it to him.
And despite their reputation for politeness, Canadians seem to have another reputation for not tipping. If I see a foreigner not tipping, knowing that in some locales tipping the dealer is not allowed, when I win a pot, I may make a point to ask the dealer, "Are you allowed to accept gratuities?" That usually gets the point across.
Already responded to your PM, but again, nice playing w/ you the other night!
LOL. So is it that particular player who is referred to as "Mr. Richard Cranium" or is that a generic name for anyone with his attitude?
If my memory is correct, and it sure as heck may not be, the cheap SOB had left the table before you arrived. Is that correct? Anyway, I think I can guess who the dealer who said that was, but I could be wrong. However, that would be the best buck the dealer ever spent, if he was able to do that. I wonder what Mr. Cranium's reaction would be? If I had heard the guy's reason for not tipping and then saw a dealer do that to him, I would laugh for a week and then probably throw the dealer a buck or two myself. Awesome, just awesome.
BTW, the player in question at one point admitted to this same woman I referred to that he was a bad person! He was referring specifically to cheating on his girlfriends, but apparently he just screws everyone, one way or the other.
And right back atcha! Never thought I'd enjoy running into a buzzedsaw! :) (Sorry)
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