Question About SnG strategy

[FortePokerNiche]

Hello AVP,

Quick (well not really that quick) question concerning playing SnG's online fairly seriously. As I posted in the Introductory Forum, I have been playing online for several years now but am just now beginning to take my poker play seriously. I am wanting to start playing SnG's pretty regularly as I think my SnG performance is much better than my MTT and cash game. I have just created an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of my performance and to keep track of my bankroll and to figure out where my weaknesses might be located. I have read several books concerning poker and am regularly reading this site and trying to understand certain plays that are made by people on this forum.

I am writing to ask about certain advice when it comes to beginning to take SnG's serious. I have noticed that the DoN games are quite popular right now, but I am not sure if that is where a novice should start. I understand that bankroll management is a top priority when it comes to taking poker seriously and understand that my bankroll will be a determining factor when it comes to deciding which stakes to play.

I will start out with a $200 online bankroll. As I am a student that works part time for my father's web design company, I will not have all that much money to cash flow this venture, and as such, will take the necessary steps to cover variance. This post is primarily to seek advice from those that have been playing online SnG's and to ask for any information that you may have to offer.

-What would you like to have known before you started?
-What was the biggest mistake you made when you first began playing?
-What do you wish you would have known then that you know now.

Thanks in advance.

-Forte.

[TI Poker]

Forte -

I play Double or Nothings almost exclusively on Pstars. With a $200 bankroll, you should start playing $5 sng's until you get comfortable with the structure. Once you do, you can easily step it up to $10 because the variance is pretty low in them. Play EXTREMELY tight during the first few levels, and then make educated decisions based on stack sizes in the later rounds. It's very easy to steal blinds when it gets to the 75-150 level, as long as you aren't shoving into somebody with either a ton of chips, or someone who is very short stacked.

Another good thing about them is that they are very easy to multi table. Once you get the technique down, you can easily play several of them at a time. You won't run into many good players until you start playing the $50s and $100s, so you should build a nice roll pretty quickly.

[FortePokerNiche]

Thanks T.I. for such a quick response. In regards to your choice on the $5.00 DoN SnG. Would you think that following a 40 buy-in rule, in general, be a good starting point for me to get my "feet wet?" I have read numerous opinions in regards to SnG bankroll management and there does not seem to be a clear consensus when it comes to bankroll requirements for SnGs. I have read all over the internet opinions ranging from 20 - 40 buy-ins and I am not quite sure.

Do you you suppose that I should initially start with 40 buy-ins and then modify it based on my performance, comfort level, and opponent play level? Or should I just try and maintain a 40 buy-in benchmark and intermittently take chances in larger buy-ins?

-Forte

[TI Poker]

Well, like i said, the variance in DoN's is quite low compared to every other type of sng. Sure, you can go on a bad run, but if you are a winning player, 40 bi's should be more then enough. I would play 50-100 of them, evaluate your success, and determine whether or not you think you should move up. When you comfortable enough to multi table, you should do it. I typically play between 12-20 at a time. My roi is higher when i play less tables, however, im willing to give up some of the roi in order to put in more volume. My 'sweet spot' seems to be right around 14 tables. My roi doesn't suffer too much, and im able to gather tons of vpps which essentially becomes rakeback.

[cokeboy99]

Do you typically play the turbos or regular SnG's? Is there much of a strategy difference between the 2?

[24fanatics]

You won't run into many good players until you start playing the $50s and $100s, so you should build a nice roll pretty quickly.

I grinded the $5 and $10 pretty hard earlier this year, and it seemed to me that even at these levels, the games were pretty reg infested. I would consistently see the same people over and over. There were some sessions when I was trying to game select and still ended up with 7 or 8 regs in the game. The games are still beatable because not all of these regs are good players, but it is definitely more of a grind than it used to be.

[vookenmeister]

Forte -

Play EXTREMELY tight during the first few levels, and then make educated decisions based on stack sizes in the later rounds. It's very easy to steal blinds when it gets to the 75-150 level, as long as you aren't shoving into somebody with either a ton of chips, or someone who is very short stacked.

this is exactly how I play them and successfully at that. I will say that I would not add any additional tables until you are comfy that you have a feel for one table, then two, etc. I personally do not play more than three tables at a time (but that is more due to a crappy laptop and the fact that I love analyzing plays over playing like a robot). if your goal is profit add tables as long as you play does not suffer.

I highly recommend starting with 1 table SNGs around $3. In fact, I was most successful playing the top five of ten payout structures as opposed to the top three out of ten payout structures. This is because too many people at these levels play too loose early on and bust out. then when things get close to the bubble they tighten up.

Also later in tourneys I recommend smaller raises to steal blinds... this can be accomplished by raising 2.5BB

I do not recommend turbos because I think there is less room for manuevering. I despise super turbos because you pretty much end up shoving after 10 hands.

My last piece of advice is to read miamicane scott's blog. he plays mostly MTTs but he truly knows what the hell he is doing so his hand analysis is SOLID.

I started playing online last October. My historical stats are below.

1st 78
2nd 28
3rd 36
4th 13
out of money 150

Total 305


lower price tourneys = 152, profit of 152 $325 $2.14 average per tourney
higher 153, profit of $1,370 $8.96 average per tourney

i consider higher any tourney that is $10 or more. I only play the higher priced tourneys now unless I get too impatient waiting for a game.

One big thing to notice is my high percentage of wins (78 of 305). I think this is because I play tight early then raise like a maniac late in tourneys and almost always in position regardless of my hand. Also, I rarely play more than two tourneys at a time so my ROI is prob not as good as a ture grinder like the others who have replied.

[vookenmeister]

oh and get holdemmanager. the stats are nice but the hand history functionality is even better. stats software is a must if you are going to multitable (meaning you can't pay full attention to one table)

[FortePokerNiche]

First, thanks for all the advice everyone.

@24Fanatics, thanks for informing me that the games are still beatable even with the regs at the table. I understand that table selection for the DoNs are going to be a great challenge, but it is "inspiring" (for a lack of a better word) to know that even with the regulars that the game is still beatable.

Follow up question for vookenmeister, would you think that the investment for the full version of Holdem Manager to be worth it? Or since I will be starting out at the lower stakes that the less expensive one would be useful until such time that my bankroll/performance allows for larger limits? The price is only about $30 difference and with me wanting to take this serious I have been looking at purchasing software to go along with my bankroll.

Additionally, I have been reading miamicane scott's blog nearly religiously. I concur that his hand analysis is extremely solid.

Again, thanks for all the advice.

-Forte

[vookenmeister]

Follow up question for vookenmeister, would you think that the investment for the full version of Holdem Manager to be worth it? Or since I will be starting out at the lower stakes that the less expensive one would be useful until such time that my bankroll/performance allows for larger limits? The price is only about $30 difference and with me wanting to take this serious I have been looking at purchasing software to go along with my bankroll.

good question. I did the free small stakes version trial and loved it. I then only bought the small stakes. the good news is when I went to purchase the higher stakes version I found out I only had to pay the difference in cost ($30) to upgrade. So buy the cheapest version for now!!

Keep us posted on how you do and good luck!

PS. I also started with only $200 as part of a bet with my wife that I could turn that $200 into $2000 without ever reloading. She lost the bet.

[cokeboy99]

Is Hold em manager relatively easy to understand? Have not used software for poker play before and want to get an idea of what it's like before I try it...

Thanks!

[FortePokerNiche]

Cokeboy, I do not know for sure about the easy of use of Holdem Manager. But I do know that you get a free 15 day trial use of the software. At the end of the trial you have to purchase it. Just thought I would help out with it...

-Forte.

[cokeboy99]

Can I just stop using it rather than purchasing it? lol So much detail, for no more often than I play, no idea if I want this or not....wow.....not sure I can figure it out....lol

[FortePokerNiche]

Yeah, it does cover a bunch of information. But I went to youtube and was able to see some demonstration on how to use it and setting it up. Yeah, I'd try it out for the 15 days...you do not have to use it, just it won't work after 15 days...

-Forte

[vookenmeister]

it is extremely complex and easy at the same time. I prob only use 10% of its real functionality. I just don't play often enough to usefully tinker with it.

the cool thing it does do pretty much out of the box is hand history display. This alone is worth the product for me. It tracks each hand and keeps a history that you can click on. So after a hand is over while the action continues I can click on the history and see what each person displayed, what they bet, etc including actual percentages of winning if they showed the hand down. I find this extremely useful and fun to look thru. I also use the HUD (heads up display). It helps me peg the basic styles of players.

One sneaky thing I do is nightly I open up four tables on bodog as a spectator and let my software collect stats. So even though I rarely play I have tons of stats on the regulars at the tables.

[stoked]

One sneaky thing I do is nightly I open up four tables on bodog as a spectator and let my software collect stats. So even though I rarely play I have tons of stats on the regulars at the tables.

nice man i have never thought of that... I'm going to start doing that for sure!

[TheJacob]

SNGs are my source of income at the moment.

With $200 on stars I'd play the $3.40 turbos and/or the $2.20 turbo 180 mans.
I don't really agree that the games don't get tough until the $50s or $100s. I don't play on stars much at the moment, but I my main games are range from 8.75 to 40 with buyins up to $100 thrown in if one is soft. I play on a smaller network so I play pretty much every type of SNG they haven that runs(including DONs).
It depends on what the particular game is. The multi table SNGs even at the lower levels(under $20) generally have plenty of good players in them.
The number of good players is generally determined by the hourly rate you can achieve and not the buyin of the game.
Games where a high hourly rate is possible you will see more good players regardless of the buyin level.

I'd be playing those on stars if it weren't for games that are much more lucrative along with a very good rakeback deal on another network.

Oh and you must download SNG wizard. Its the best way to learn your shoving ranges.

If I'm not playing and on AIM I'd be happy to talk with you some about SNG strategy. My aim is:PokerstarsJacob

SNGs are fun: (my last ten days)

I just play STTs right now, but thats a mixture of all types.

I think I'm going to start a blog for a SNG play fairly soon.

[FortePokerNiche]

TheJacob, thanks for the reply. I just had a follow up question to your post. While I have estimated that I am going to start my bankroll with $200, I just received a scholarship for the fall semester so I am thinking I may apply that money (as it will just be excess aid) to my bankroll which will be approximately another $200.

In your post you made a comment about playing turbos. While I feel fairly confident in my play I am weary of playing turbos because of the nature of turbos not allowing for too many mistakes. What non-turbo SnG's would you play (they do not have to be single or multi-table)?

-Forte

[FortePokerNiche]

One more thing, is there anyone that could take a look at the Bankroll Management Spreadsheets that I have created and tell me what you think. I am a novice when it comes to creating spreadsheets, I am trying to make sure that the information that I have thought to include was sufficient in terms of understanding my profit/loss when it comes to poker.

I tried to upload it to Google Docs but the spreadsheet is too large to be uploaded ( > 1MB) so I would have to email you the spreadsheet.

Thanks in advance.

-Forte

[jjmaximum]

Whatever you decide, be sure you sign up and get rakeback. It is often-times the difference between a winning week/month and a losing one, especially if you are multi-tabling for hours at a time like some of us