Binions Classic Final Table Hand

TheOD · **Joined:** Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:04 am **Posts:** 494

We were down to 6 players and in the money. The blinds were 4000/8000/1000. I had roughly 96,000. The average stack was 165,000, there were no tiny stacks nor monster stacks. I was probably the shortest at the table, but not by a huge margin. I had been fairly card dead for a little bit, except for the previous round when I picked up JJ raised to 22k got no callers an showed the hand. My image was fairly aggressive, especially to the V who I had played with before the final table. On to the hand.

I pick up Ah10c UTG and raise to 22k, folds to V in BB and he thinks briefly and calls.

Pot - 54K

Flop Qs 10d 9s

V - Declares all in, and has me covered by about double. This puts the pot at 128K, and it is 74K and my tournament life to call. What range do you put V on here? If I fold I have just less than 10BB, Do I fold and look for a better spot? Had the flop whiffed me completely, or had I been re raised preflop I could have folded and preserved my shove stack. What do you do?

mr_railbird · **Joined:** Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:04 pm **Posts:** 521

What style or range has V been playing to this point? With no prior information, I would say call with your chip stack. With middle pair, top kicker with a raised pot preflop and a dangerous board, you need some fold equity with your hand. If you were first to act, I would see a shove as a requirement. Unfortunately you are "out of position" in this scenario since fold equity is so big in this part of a tourney and you are second to act post flop.

V could have:
AQ (unlikely as he would have shoved you all in preflop with that)
JJ-99 (unlikely due to same preflop shove)
AA or KK (rare but you can't put him on this strongly enough to fold, although most people would shove with this preflop, with your chip stack sizes, a call and blind shove on the flop is the best way to play these especially if you are first to act post flop)
AK (unlikely, he would have probably shoved preflop with this)

J without a pair or flush draw (likely)
J with a Q (likely) OUCH
J with a 10 or 9 (likely)
J-10,J-K, A-J with flush draw (likely, although AJ is probably better for allin preflop push)
A-J without flush draw (likely, although I put AJ as a push all in preflop hand)

2 pair (possible but that's just too bad for you)

Definitely wanted to be first to push but there are plenty of hands you would be ahead of right here to simply fold considering your stack size relative to the pot and your remaining stack size if you were to fold relative to the blinds. If you're going for first, call here. If you're going for extra money for 5th or 4th place, fold and cross your fingers.

missingflops · **Posted:** Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:45 am

TheOD wrote:

We were down to 6 players and in the money. The blinds were 4000/8000/1000. I had roughly 96,000. The average stack was 165,000, there were no tiny stacks nor monster stacks. I was probably the shortest at the table, but not by a huge margin. I had been fairly card dead for a little bit, except for the previous round when I picked up JJ raised to 22k got no callers an showed the hand. My image was fairly aggressive, especially to the V who I had played with before the final table. On to the hand.

I pick up Ah10c UTG and raise to 22k, folds to V in BB and he thinks briefly and calls.

Pot - 54K

Flop Qs 10d 9s

V - Declares all in, and has me covered by about double. This puts the pot at 128K, and it is 74K and my tournament life to call. What range do you put V on here? If I fold I have just less than 10BB, Do I fold and look for a better spot? Had the flop whiffed me completely, or had I been re raised preflop I could have folded and preserved my shove stack. What do you do?

I think the missing part to the equation here is knowing something about the payouts. You're in the money, but is there really any significant pay jump before say the top three spots? If you're not going to make a significant increase (and significant is in the eye of the beholder) by lasting till fifth or fourth I'm going to lean towards going for it here. If making it to fifth or fourth is important to me I'll resolve a close call towards folding and having a stack I can just shove preflop with as appropriate. If avg stack is around 20 bb then chip stacks are going to be pretty volatile.

I have to think V's hand isn't huge here. You said he knows you're aggressive so I have to think that with a flopped straight he lets you try and keep the lead. As coordinated as the board is I can see him doing this with a set to avoid giving the free card, but I also don't think he flats you preflop with QQ. TT could have flatted but also could have 3 bet you preflop - did you have any read on what his pre flop three bet range is? If he's got a set I think it's most likely 99 and from a card combination point of view that's less likely. This really feels like pair and a draw to me, so something like JTss, QJ, J9. If you're ahead I think you have a lot of cards to dodge on the turn and the river.

So I'll go back to the payout question. If the difference between 6th and 4th isn't huge to me I'm calling and hoping for the double up. If limping a spot or two ahead makes a difference, I fold and look for a hand to shove pre-flop.

vookenmeister · **Posted:** Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:39 am

tough spot. I think it's easier to rule out what he does NOT have. typing this quickly so i might miss something.

I would rule out KJ cause he would check/raise that
I would also rule out QQ or JJ cause they prob shove preflop
I rule out 1010 and 99 cause I would expect a check/raise
I also rule out AK and AQ cause i think that is a shove preflop (though some villains are uber-tight)

Hands that beat you. he could have AA or KK and played it sneaky preflop. He could have KQ, QJ, Q10, 109, Q9 (unlikely), J8 (insane)
hands you beat that prob shove. AJ, J10, J9, nut flush draws, K10 flush draw, pairs 8 or a lower or bluff (unlikely)

If this was cash, I'd say fold. Since this is tourney, it's difficult. His range is ahead of you mostly here. However, I think you can mostly count your A and 10 outs vs what he would shove. It might be worth the gamble to get your stack to a level where you can manipulate and steal blinds and antes.

tough spot. in the heat of the moment i prob fold. in reality it prob depends on how steep the payout structure and whether you feel taking this gamble gives you enough chips to manuever.

AdRock · **Posted:** Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:04 am

Haven't read replies yet, but I'd shove pre-flop. It costs you 18K to play an orbit so your M is 5.5 at a full table. Given it's six-handed your M is ~4. There's no room to screw around and you get stuck trying to play post-flop. Stealing blinds adds 20% to your stack.

Played the way you did I'd call and cross my fingers. Given stack sizes, all-in is your only bet -- you can't bet 30K and then fold -- so he's beating you to the punch. I think most hands that beat you are willing to let you fire and check-raise check call. Big hands -- QQ, TT, 99, KJ, J8 -- for sure don't want to give you a chance to fold. This looks like a semi-bluff to me with Jx.

How did you wind up? Your tweets stopped about the final table.

TheOD · **Joined:** Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:04 am **Posts:** 494

I was playing to win, and at the time I believed if he had top pair or better he would have checked and let me bet. I talked it out and thought there was no way he held a Q so I must be good. The stack sizes were partially a reason to call but had I believed I was behind I would have let it go. After a couple minute tank, I called and he showed JJ and held. It was a little frustrating going out in 6th the past 2 binions tournies I played. I have gone back and forth in my head about how I played the hand I am still not sure if it was a good or bad spot, but I know its easy to be results oriented/skewed. Whatever, on to the next tourney.

vookenmeister · **Posted:** Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:51 pm

I think a call is proper if u are playing to win. Jj surprises me as I would have expected him to shove preflop with that. I do think he might have shoved with a q here too to protect his hand on this board (not saying I would but he might). I think u have any other part of his range beat

miamicane · **Posted:** Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:07 am

First off, I agree with AdRock that this hand should be shoved preflop. I calculate your present M to be 5.3, and adjusting for 6 handed play, your adjusted M is just 3.2. Raise/folding = disaster with your chipstack, especially given the fact that you hit the big blind on the next hand. Retaining preflop fold equity in future hands is very important at this stage, especially given the relatively fast structure of the 30 minute levels in this event. Of course this wouldn't have changed anything as I'm pretty sure villain would have called preflop w JJ anyway.

As played though I call on the flop. Villain usually didn't flop too huge here when he is leading out, as he probably would have checked it to you and allowed you to fire a cbet. It seems to me that he is running a stop and go type play where he is trying to pickup some fold equity. Of course this could also be some sort of strange value shove to "protect his hand" but I just think you have too many chips out there to let this go. What were you planning to do if you got 3 bet shoved on by the preflop?

fightingillini · **Joined:** Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:36 am **Posts:** 665

Agree with the field.....you should call if you want to win. Surprised that V didn't reraise you preflop with JJ. Him letting you see a flop could have doomed him. But his push on the flop makes sense....he has a pair and an OESD, and likely has 11 outs if he's behind.

TheJacob · **Joined:** Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:13 am **Posts:** 1417

I wanted to shove pre before I even saw what your hand was.

Opening with less than AA when you have under 15BBs is probably the biggest and most common mistake that can be made in tournaments.
I'd shove 22-KK,KQ,KJss,A8ss+,AT+, maybe slightly looser my brain is fried from 18 days of mind numbingly boring live poker.

Bottom line is you only open AA and you even shove that if you are playing against players who have a clue.

Now you know...if you are playing at a table full of donks except me and you and I open with 12BBss...you can easily fold KK.

Binions Classic Final Table Hand

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