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Board index > Poker Strategy Discussion > No Limit Hold'em Cash Game Strategy


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What do you do when nothing is working?



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steve e
 Post subject: Re: What do you do when nothing is working?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:09 pm 
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Trips

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 7:31 pm
Posts: 197
fightingillini wrote:
Great responses so far. I will add a few more Dave.

1) Remember to be a winning player, you have to have some BIG winning sessions. I lose money about 60% of the time (not uncommon), but my winning sessions are 2-3x my average losing session, so I make money in the long run. I cap all my losses to 2 buy ins. Never more. I don't bring my ATM card. Just two buy ins of cash, drivers license, and some extra cash for food/drinks/tips.

2) You can't have big winning sessions unless you can win some big pots. And you can't win big pots unless you have big hands and and your opponents have to give you the action. That's the key. You play a tight game. Tight players generally have a hard time winning big pots because they usually will put serious money in only if they have a big hand. Essentially the motto is.....to get action, you have to give action. You may have an image problem where good tight aggressive players don't give you the action when you want it. Ask yourself "Am I losing most of the big pots that I am in?". I know a lot of players that play well, win lots and lots of small pots, and then bam, they lose most of their stack in a big pot. Sometimes you have to play some big pots, some with good hands that aren't close to the nuts. If you're afraid to play big pots with hands that are good but not close to the nuts, then opponents will start putting the heat on you.

3) Play at looser tables, much of what I said in #2 goes away. Then you can play your typical tight game, make good hands, and value bet the sh!t out of them. Weak loose 1-2 players aren't paying attention that you haven't played a hand in an hour.

4) Are you limping in and then folding to raises? I know a lot of players who do this (I used to), and that will eat up your stack just as much as the rake can. If this is true, you need to rectify it by taking two approaches....1) if first in, always raise or fold or the 2) what Acehater always recomends....if it's worth limping in for $2, it's worth playing for $12-15. If you use the "Acehater" method, your limps will get more respect since they know that you likely won't fold. Also using this method will weed out a lot of junk that you might limp in with. On the flip side, if you're noticing players limping in and folding a lot, attack the limpers when you're in position. You don't need a hand......in fact this type of play goes a long way in your image of an action player so that (what I said in #2) when you do get a big hand, you have a better chance of getting paid.

and 5) we have all been in your shoes. Where nothing goes right. Hang in there. If you're playing a good game, you'll come back.


I am pretty sure most winning players average more winning sessions than losing ones playin NL Holdem, so I suggest taking that with a grain of salt. If fightingIL is an overall winning player but posts winning sessions less than 50% of the time, I would consider that an exception to the norm. Just MHO.


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fightingillini
 Post subject: Re: What do you do when nothing is working?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Full House

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:36 am
Posts: 665
steve e wrote:
fightingillini wrote:
Great responses so far. I will add a few more Dave.

1) Remember to be a winning player, you have to have some BIG winning sessions. I lose money about 60% of the time (not uncommon), but my winning sessions are 2-3x my average losing session, so I make money in the long run. I cap all my losses to 2 buy ins. Never more. I don't bring my ATM card. Just two buy ins of cash, drivers license, and some extra cash for food/drinks/tips.

2) You can't have big winning sessions unless you can win some big pots. And you can't win big pots unless you have big hands and and your opponents have to give you the action. That's the key. You play a tight game. Tight players generally have a hard time winning big pots because they usually will put serious money in only if they have a big hand. Essentially the motto is.....to get action, you have to give action. You may have an image problem where good tight aggressive players don't give you the action when you want it. Ask yourself "Am I losing most of the big pots that I am in?". I know a lot of players that play well, win lots and lots of small pots, and then bam, they lose most of their stack in a big pot. Sometimes you have to play some big pots, some with good hands that aren't close to the nuts. If you're afraid to play big pots with hands that are good but not close to the nuts, then opponents will start putting the heat on you.

3) Play at looser tables, much of what I said in #2 goes away. Then you can play your typical tight game, make good hands, and value bet the sh!t out of them. Weak loose 1-2 players aren't paying attention that you haven't played a hand in an hour.

4) Are you limping in and then folding to raises? I know a lot of players who do this (I used to), and that will eat up your stack just as much as the rake can. If this is true, you need to rectify it by taking two approaches....1) if first in, always raise or fold or the 2) what Acehater always recomends....if it's worth limping in for $2, it's worth playing for $12-15. If you use the "Acehater" method, your limps will get more respect since they know that you likely won't fold. Also using this method will weed out a lot of junk that you might limp in with. On the flip side, if you're noticing players limping in and folding a lot, attack the limpers when you're in position. You don't need a hand......in fact this type of play goes a long way in your image of an action player so that (what I said in #2) when you do get a big hand, you have a better chance of getting paid.

and 5) we have all been in your shoes. Where nothing goes right. Hang in there. If you're playing a good game, you'll come back.


I am pretty sure most winning players average more winning sessions than losing ones playin NL Holdem, so I suggest taking that with a grain of salt. If fightingIL is an overall winning player but posts winning sessions less than 50% of the time, I would consider that an exception to the norm. Just MHO.


Steve e, I would generally agree. While I am a winnning player, I feel that there are quite a few better players than me.....I would consider my self better than say 75-80% of the typical 1-2 players. But my situation I don't think is that uncommon though. Many times you play "breakeven" poker, but post a small loss due to the rake. I do think it's really hard to post over 60-65% winning sessions, unless you're one of the best players in the room. The key is to have your winning sessions be much more than your losing sessions, which is in my case. I would think my average winning session is about $300 (given a $300 buy in game), and my average loss is about $125-150, since my loss is never more than $600 (and sometimes I just leave after losing one buy-in, if I think losing the first one will put me on tilt). 40%*300-60%*125=45, divided by $300 equates to a 15% rate of return. I would say that's good but I am sure many others make more. I have some leaks in my game that would probably get me to over 50% win rate. I will have some winning sessions of $100 or so but it's the big wins of say $500-$1000 is what puts you far ahead.

I generally play to win big. If I get hot at a table, I am going to ride it. As long as I can. As long as I continue to a play a disciplined style game and not just start splashing around in pots just because I have chips. I am not going to log in a lot of hours just to grind to win say $50.....I have better things to do with my time. I have had a lot of short sessions where either I don't feel I am playing my best or the cards aren't falling my way or I don't like the table dynamic, and I will walk away losing a small amount (under $100).

The general goal of my comment is that to be a consistent winner, you need to have big winning sessions, because it's hard to grind back from losing 1 or 2 full buyins. Lose a $200 stack and it requires 4 $50 winning sessions (or a 25% rate of return). Not easy given the rake. You need those big wins to offset getting stacked (which will happen).


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Acehater
 Post subject: Re: What do you do when nothing is working?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am
Posts: 509
Location: Louisville, KY - Waiting for the next open seat
Dap Poker wrote:
I do have one specific question for you. How much does your playing style change between limit and no limit; specifically are you a lot looser in one game or the other or does it really depend on the villains at the table?

Dave


The game I played most was $10/$20 with a full kill. I found myself looking for hands that I could "punish" the kill with, especially if I had position. I was still aware of table image and how pot control, by the V, can keep you from really blowing them off of the hand. I played tighter preflop in LHE, but used pot control/pot odds to dictate how I played postflop. My version of tighter does include suited connectors, small pocket pairs, etc. against the right V. Most players in this game were older and played fairly tight anyway.

So I guess to answer your question in both games I look at what can I exploit in the Vs game? In NLH it is normally poor betting size, ability to lay a hand down, inability to lay a hand down and the "you can't possibly have that hand" factor. In LHE, I know exactly how much it will cost me at any point to get to showdown. What portion of my stack am I willing to risk? How does my hand play in a multi-way pot? Will a re-raise on the flop, drop a few players? Does this player know how to play LHE? Does this player think about my hand or only their's? Do they understand position.

I don't know if any of this helps. I kind of feel like I am rambling. I have only played a handful of Limit games in the last 6 years and most of that has come in HORSE Tourneys.

What it boils down to is that I feel like I have a larger edge on players in NLH plus a wider variety of tables to choose from by playing NLH. NLH allows me to find the perfect number to allow a call or push for a fold from the players. Poker is always about who is at your table but if you took my average...I am more aggressive and active on a normal day at a NLH table than I would be on a normal day in a LHE game.


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Dap Poker
 Post subject: Re: What do you do when nothing is working?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Quads

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:52 am
Posts: 1184
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Acehater wrote:
Poker is always about who is at your table but if you took my average...I am more aggressive and active on a normal day at a NLH table than I would be on a normal day in a LHE game.

Acehater,

That makes a lot of sense and I think I'm taking steps towards doing that. Also, I am trying -- though not always successfully -- to make adjustments based on who is at my table. Thanks again!

Dave

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The opinions in this post are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Poker Atlas, AVP or PokerTrip Enterprises.


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Dap Poker
 Post subject: Re: What do you do when nothing is working?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:55 pm 
Offline
Quads

Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:52 am
Posts: 1184
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
fightingillini wrote:
The general goal of my comment is that to be a consistent winner, you need to have big winning sessions, because it's hard to grind back from losing 1 or 2 full buyins. Lose a $200 stack and it requires 4 $50 winning sessions (or a 25% rate of return). Not easy given the rake. You need those big wins to offset getting stacked (which will happen).

Illini,

Going for some bigger wins makes a lot of sense and I can see that those are going to be a big part of being an overall winner. And I understand that there are going to be a lot of sessions where you're up just a little or down just a little, I've already had a few of those. I've also had a few of the big losing sessions -- 2 buyins and a couple of nicer wins. Just need to stop the streak of big losing sessions and put a nice little winner in their place.

I also remember a while back in another post and probably in some of the poker books I've read where people talked about stop-losses instead saying "I'll leave when I get my stack up to $X". It's sort of like your idea of riding the hot streak, but with a minor variant. Basically, if things start to turn bad and you lose a big pot or two, then you have a limit (usually a floating limit that rises as the win increases) and take a break when you hit that. During the break, think about if you're tired, tilted, or the game changed a lot and if based on one of those things you don't feel like you can continue to beat the game, then walk away. With that addition, you keeps it a decent win no matter what, but if the table keeps cooperating, then you take the cap off of the upside. That seemed really logical to me, so t was something I adopted back when I was winning.

Dave

_________________
The opinions in this post are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Poker Atlas, AVP or PokerTrip Enterprises.


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fightingillini
 Post subject: Re: What do you do when nothing is working?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:46 am 
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Full House

Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:36 am
Posts: 665
Dap Poker wrote:
fightingillini wrote:
The general goal of my comment is that to be a consistent winner, you need to have big winning sessions, because it's hard to grind back from losing 1 or 2 full buyins. Lose a $200 stack and it requires 4 $50 winning sessions (or a 25% rate of return). Not easy given the rake. You need those big wins to offset getting stacked (which will happen).

Illini,

Going for some bigger wins makes a lot of sense and I can see that those are going to be a big part of being an overall winner. And I understand that there are going to be a lot of sessions where you're up just a little or down just a little, I've already had a few of those. I've also had a few of the big losing sessions -- 2 buyins and a couple of nicer wins. Just need to stop the streak of big losing sessions and put a nice little winner in their place.

I also remember a while back in another post and probably in some of the poker books I've read where people talked about stop-losses instead saying "I'll leave when I get my stack up to $X". It's sort of like your idea of riding the hot streak, but with a minor variant. Basically, if things start to turn bad and you lose a big pot or two, then you have a limit (usually a floating limit that rises as the win increases) and take a break when you hit that. During the break, think about if you're tired, tilted, or the game changed a lot and if based on one of those things you don't feel like you can continue to beat the game, then walk away. With that addition, you keeps it a decent win no matter what, but if the table keeps cooperating, then you take the cap off of the upside. That seemed really logical to me, so t was something I adopted back when I was winning.

Dave


You have it, Dave.

When I am going for the big win and say I get hot early and double my stack, I am very careful about not being too loose and not start thinking that I can bully the table just becuase I have the chips to do so.....that type of play works much better in tournaments, but not as much in cash games. Always have a plan when you put chips into the pot.

Last time I was in Vegas, I sat down at Planet Hollywood and a guy had about $1000 in a 1-2 game. He lost is ALL in about 90 minutes. He was playing every pot (it seemed) and was slowly losing $10-30 a pot and lost 3 big pots (doubled me up once)....and each big pot he lost.....he really shouldn't have been in the pot in the first place.

So the story is.....if you get up big, keep playing your usual game. If you don't, then you should just leave and keep your profit. But if you can be disciplined to keep your same solid game, the one occasion where everything is going right for you will net you a BIG score.

Also one last point about this......when you're hot, you're showing the winning hand. A lot. That makes your image very good. Some players will be scared to play you because of that. That will give you a lot of chances to make some good bluffs to keep your stack growing. So you will have a lot of good bluffing opportunities, but as I said before, keep it in the realm of your typical game. Don't overdo it, because players will eventually figure out that you're playing too many hands and start playing back at you. On the flip side, if you have this really good image and a player continues to put serious money in the pot....they usually have the goods.

As always, best of luck to you, Dave!


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