Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:33 pm Posts: 557 Location: Wherever the bed bugs call home
Ok, everyone (Mr. Resident Pro) was just talking about extra value on the river and how it makes a big difference in great vs. good sessions. I just had two spots where I didn't know if raising/reraising was proper on the river. Details:
The game is 1/2 spread limit, action on any street is capped at $100 plus the last raise. Most pots play like no limit, but occassionally on the river you will have some odd (odd if you're used to NL) betting situations.
I know everyone says image at 1/2 isn't as important because players aren't aware, but I assure you, I had a sloppy image. I always had a beer in front of me, I was straddling, talking a lot, and I bragged about how I raised every hand for a loop. I feel a talking/drinking table is a much better table to play at.
First hand: Hero straddles UTG. 5 players call to SB who is a bet small with big hands and raise huge with draws player. SB raises to 12, Villain, who is in the BB calls.
Note on Villain: had about $800 in front of him have 500ish), but was obviously a rec player who hasn't got a lot of hours in. Not a stupid guy, just hasn't played a lot of poker. He's bet the flop multiple times with really strong hands (trips on dry board) and plays pretty straight forward other than I caught him on the river with TPNK when he ch/c, ch/c two streets then 2/3s pot river (he missed an obvious straight). I've already seen him put a decent amount of money in with a pair and straight draw, which will come in handy for this hand.
Anyway, I look down at 88 and seriously consider popping it up to $50-60, but decide not to because I actually want to flop a set with action 7 ways. Besides, I felt, considering my image, nobody ever folds their overs, and I'm 50/50, bla bla bla.
Continuing: everyone calls 12 (awesome). Flop 8........ 9 10. Why is it every time I flop a set, esp when my card is in the window, the board is so fking coordinated.
SB shoves for 90. BB calls 90. I look at all the stacks behind my and realize they are all 200ish, if they flopped the nuts, oh well, I'm really playing against BB at this point because I'm going to make it 190 and I do, everyone folds to BB (phew! but not out of the woods yet). BB elects to cawl. At this point I put him on J10 type hands, based on my read, the fact he didn't repop, and the way he actually put the money in (just a feeling).
Turn 2 (rainbow board btw): Villain checks I bet 100 he calls. Now I know he doesn't have QJ right? Would've raised me here.
River 4: Villain fires $100. Hero has ~$175 left. Marginal spot I know (as in, not much money left, so it's not that interesting), but hey, ~37 bbs is 37bbs... Why is this even a decision? Because the board hasn't changed at all, villain seems new to the game, but even he should know that someone who has been raising the entire way isn't going to fold $100 for 700 on the river, so, wtf?
Close the action and call or just shove for ~$70-80 more?
Hand 2 later.
_________________ "I would rather make the gravest of mistakes than surrender my own judgment. "
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:33 pm Posts: 557 Location: Wherever the bed bugs call home
(had to do some stuff =) ) Hand 2:
Online player from MP raises to 8, 2 callers, to me OTB with 57o, I 3bet to 25. I don't know why, but people will still folding to my 3bets, so apparently I wasn't 3betting enough, enter 57o. I felt like if internet kid folds, the other 2 wouldn't be interested at all.
Surprisingly, Villain in the BB calls 25, and internet and callers fold. Hmm.
Note on Villain: for some reason, he thinks he can outplay me everyhand and has been calling 70% of my raises but never 3betting. He could have a lot of hands here as far as I'm concerned.
Flop: 3d4d4x. Villain checks. Not a bad flop for 57o I guess. I fire $40 to continue my 3-bet charade. Villain calls.
I think he has 55-1010 type hands here a lot, now that he's called.
River: 6x. Villain checks. I must be the best player ever, look at how I coaxed that river 6 into appearing. Since we've kinda been playing at each other a bit, I bet $80, cuz if he was calling $60 he was calling $80.
He says "What do you have?" I just stare. He says $180. I say "Wtf!?" I got a speech and everything. He has about $150 behind the $100 raise. Call or raise?
_________________ "I would rather make the gravest of mistakes than surrender my own judgment. "
Hand 1- I like preflop play and flop raise sizing. I am totally confused by your tiny turn bet considering our stack size. On the turn you should have shoved for your ~$270 considering our stack to Pot ratio and such a wet board. I mean, if you bet $100 on the turn and he puts you in for ~$270 we snap call, so best to protect your hand. On the river as played, I guess just shove your last $70 for value and hope he calls and you win.
Hand 2- I hate getting a speech. Just call his raise and don't be surprised to see a weird quads or full house. If you're good though, raising doesn't accomplish much as hands that you beat likely fold to your reraise. There is also a chance you're chopping as you're not supposed to hit this board since you 3bet, so he an safely raise the same straight you have. He's also not folding the straight ever, so raising him never gets him to fold chops. There is a small chance he's raising trips for value since your hand looks like JJ+, but I think he's more than likely not to think that deep and is likely raising straights + strictly for the value of his hand.
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am Posts: 2916 Location: Seattle area
Just read the first reply.
I couldn't actually do it, but I think a fold may be the best play. You raised the flop and max bet the turn. V knows you have a strong hand. It is impossible for the turn or river to have changed who is ahead. It's also very unlikely that the turn or river suckers V into thinking he's ahead -- e.g., he has T2 and thinks his two pair is good.
So why is V who smooth called on the flop and turn suddenly leading out the river? The rational reason is he knows (or strongly suspects) his hand is good and wants to make sure you don't check behind. I suspect QJ or TT. The only hand you can beat is T9 and so many hands beat that it's hard to believe he suddenly feels strong about it.
Edit for hand 2: Just call. Benton nailed it; worse hands won't pay you off.
One more edit: Really curious to see how the first hand turned out but please wait for more replies. I think almost everyone will say to put your last $70 in because the pot is big and your hand is strong.
I couldn't actually do it, but I think a fold may be the best play. You raised the flop and max bet the turn. V knows you have a strong hand. It is impossible for the turn or river to have changed who is ahead. It's also very unlikely that the turn or river suckers V into thinking he's ahead -- e.g., he has T2 and thinks his two pair is good.
So why is V who smooth called on the flop and turn suddenly leading out the river? The rational reason is he knows (or strongly suspects) his hand is good and wants to make sure you don't check behind. I suspect QJ or TT. The only hand you can beat is T9 and so many hands beat that it's hard to believe he suddenly feels strong about it.
Edit for hand 2: Just call. Benton nailed it; worse hands won't pay you off.
One more edit: Really curious to see how the first hand turned out but please wait for more replies. I think almost everyone will say to put your last $70 in because the pot is big and your hand is strong.
hand 1 I see your point but here a call is definitely better than a fold. Getting 8:1 (or more), even though i may agree we're beat a decent bit of the time, we definitely have a better than 15% chance of having the best hand. Plus, calling and being beat sucks, but folding the best hand here getting such a good price is detrimental!
BTW, whether you shove the last 70 or call is so inconsequential compared to the pot, and in all likelihood calling may be better than shovoing for 70 more, but it's super close and I'd still shove because if i think its even slightly more EV in a spot like this i'd take it.
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am Posts: 2916 Location: Seattle area
I mostly agree with the last point that given stacks/betting structure the bets are so small that call vs. shove doesn't matter much relative to the size of the pot. I think the +EV of not tilting by making a terrible play exceeds the -EV of making a wrong play (call/shove).
By my count there's $870 in the pot and it's $100 to call. We only need to be good here 11% of the time to call. I actually think we're only good 5-10% here -- you need a bad player overplaying two pair -- but won't argue if you think it's 20%. But we have to be ahead 51% of the time for the shove to make sense, and I can't see being a good play. Perhaps I play against a radically different set of players than you do.
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have 500ish), but was obviously a rec player who hasn't got a lot of hours in. Not a stupid guy, just hasn't played a lot of poker. He's bet the flop multiple times with really strong hands (trips on dry board) and plays pretty straight forward other than I caught him on the river with TPNK when he ch/c, ch/c two streets then 2/3s pot river (he missed an obvious straight). I've already seen him put a decent amount of money in with a pair and straight draw, which will come in handy for this hand.
